Comments on: Max/MSP and Pd: Political Manifestos and Free Music Software http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/ The latest gear, software, and techniques for electronic music production and performance Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:23:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: iTom http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-20821 iTom Fri, 28 Jul 2006 15:23:46 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-20821 the correct link to the "stay free" article is http://www.yourmachines.org/ym2004/stay_free.html the correct link to the “stay free” article is
http://www.yourmachines.org/ym2004/stay_free.html

]]> By: Guest http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-920 Guest Thu, 05 May 2005 23:13:07 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-920 'Though I still can't find anyone using jMax' -It was recently killed by its creators.... ‘Though I still can’t find anyone using jMax’
-It was recently killed by its creators….

]]> By: Guest http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-919 Guest Thu, 05 May 2005 23:11:03 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-919 The Freedom of Free Software is the ability to read and modify the source code, price has nothing to do with it (in principle anyway). Being able to read and modify the code for creative tools is incredibly useful, your creativity doesn't have to stop at the UI or at a limited scripting interface, and your ability to work with both can benefit from understanding how they work. Here endeth the polemic. :grin The Freedom of Free Software is the ability to read and modify the source code, price has nothing to do with it (in principle anyway).
Being able to read and modify the code for creative tools is incredibly useful, your creativity doesn’t have to stop at the UI or at a limited scripting interface, and your ability to work with both can benefit from understanding how they work.
Here endeth the polemic. :grin

]]> By: admin http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-918 admin Thu, 05 May 2005 23:05:33 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-918 . . . each has strengths. I'm responding to the notion that SuperCollider is 'more musical' -- don't see it -- or that (from the link) Pd is 'more extensible' than Max/MSP because of externals -- simply not true. Max/PD/etc. and real-time pathing environments do tend to be limited in setting up linear musical structures in time, that's true, and there SuperCollider and Csound have an edge (working in different ways). Csound is very mature, but I'm not personally convinced that it's kept pace with the times. (though, of course, it still has a very loyal following) Anyway, all of these fall into the 'people use them' and 'people do interesting things with them' category, so they're all noteworthy, and do have things to differentiate them from one another. Though I still can't find anyone using jMax -- please stand up if you are. Peter . . . each has strengths. I’m responding to the notion that SuperCollider is ‘more musical’ — don’t see it — or that (from the link) Pd is ‘more extensible’ than Max/MSP because of externals — simply not true.

Max/PD/etc. and real-time pathing environments do tend to be limited in setting up linear musical structures in time, that’s true, and there SuperCollider and Csound have an edge (working in different ways). Csound is very mature, but I’m not personally convinced that it’s kept pace with the times. (though, of course, it still has a very loyal following)

Anyway, all of these fall into the ‘people use them’ and ‘people do interesting things with them’ category, so they’re all noteworthy, and do have things to differentiate them from one another. Though I still can’t find anyone using jMax — please stand up if you are.

Peter

]]> By: Guest http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-917 Guest Thu, 05 May 2005 22:59:11 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-917 'to say any one of these tools is inherently superior is silly' -Don't think so. Each of them have their own strengths in their own area: SC is excellent in scripting audio structures and the Max'es (PD, jMax, Max) are wonderful in controlling these. Csound is perfect for non-realtime rendering. ‘to say any one of these tools is inherently superior is silly’
-Don’t think so. Each of them have their own strengths in
their own area: SC is excellent in scripting audio
structures and the Max’es (PD, jMax, Max) are
wonderful in controlling these.
Csound is perfect for non-realtime rendering.

]]> By: Guest http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-916 Guest Thu, 05 May 2005 22:57:27 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-916 'to say any one of these tools is inherently superior is silly' -Don't think so. Each of them have their own strengths in their own area: SC is excellent in scripting audio structures and the Max'es (PD, jMax, Max) are wonderful in controlling these. Csound is perfect for non-realtime rendering. ‘to say any one of these tools is inherently superior is silly’
-Don’t think so. Each of them have their own strengths in
their own area: SC is excellent in scripting audio
structures and the Max’es (PD, jMax, Max) are
wonderful in controlling these.
Csound is perfect for non-realtime rendering.

]]> By: admin http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-915 admin Thu, 05 May 2005 21:21:44 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-915 . . . I see what may have tripped this off: I'm using the Pd vs. Max debate as an indication of the open source vs. commercial camps. It is by NO means inclusive of all the possible tools on each side (Ardour vs. Pro Tools, for instance). If we wanted to just look at the major free tools for interactive software design (jMax, Pd, SuperCollider, CSound, etc.), that would be do-able -- though I didn't do that here. (Actually, those four would probably be fine to get people started, unless anyone has any additional favorites? Anyone for JSyn? RTcmix?) Oh, and to any fans of Dr. Boulanger: of course, a huge influence on Csound, and the community at large . . . though even he defers to Vercoe for the pioneering work on Csound. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to . . . Logic Pro. ;) . . . I see what may have tripped this off:

I’m using the Pd vs. Max debate as an indication of the open source vs. commercial camps. It is by NO means inclusive of all the possible tools on each side (Ardour vs. Pro Tools, for instance).

If we wanted to just look at the major free tools for interactive software design (jMax, Pd, SuperCollider, CSound, etc.), that would be do-able — though I didn’t do that here. (Actually, those four would probably be fine to get people started, unless anyone has any additional favorites? Anyone for JSyn? RTcmix?)

Oh, and to any fans of Dr. Boulanger: of course, a huge influence on Csound, and the community at large . . . though even he defers to Vercoe for the pioneering work on Csound.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to get back to . . . Logic Pro. ;)

]]> By: admin http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-914 admin Thu, 05 May 2005 21:17:06 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-914 Not directly related -- SC is based on similar conceptual research. As for CSound, got my wires crossed and left out a step -- meant CSound *by way of* Music I - IV; CSound is a derivative of Max Mathews' original Music I (Mathews and others then contributed to subsequent versions . . .) Richard Boulanger did NOT write CSound. If you had to credit it to one person, you'd probably pick Berry Vercoe who contributed more than anyone, but again, CSound wouldn't exist without Mathews and others at Bell, and the whole family (CSound, Max, Music I - xx) came out of a lot of sharing of work. All these tools are related, some strongly (like CSound to Music IV), some via more weak conceptual connections. This is easily the subject of a BOOK, not a comment(!!), but I may do a quick overview of the history in a future article -- which would certainly require research on my part, as it all gets rather convoluted! Anyway, bottom line: to say any one of these tools is inherently superior is silly. Fundamentally, they all have an identical purpose and function. The fact that there are so many variations just demonstrates that people are driven by highly individualized tastes -- and that's fine. Not directly related — SC is based on similar conceptual research.

As for CSound, got my wires crossed and left out a step — meant CSound *by way of* Music I - IV; CSound is a derivative of Max Mathews’ original Music I (Mathews and others then contributed to subsequent versions . . .)

Richard Boulanger did NOT write CSound. If you had to credit it to one person, you’d probably pick Berry Vercoe who contributed more than anyone, but again, CSound wouldn’t exist without Mathews and others at Bell, and the whole family (CSound, Max, Music I - xx) came out of a lot of sharing of work.

All these tools are related, some strongly (like CSound to Music IV), some via more weak conceptual connections. This is easily the subject of a BOOK, not a comment(!!), but I may do a quick overview of the history in a future article — which would certainly require research on my part, as it all gets rather convoluted!

Anyway, bottom line: to say any one of these tools is inherently superior is silly. Fundamentally, they all have an identical purpose and function. The fact that there are so many variations just demonstrates that people are driven by highly individualized tastes — and that’s fine.

]]> By: Guest http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-913 Guest Thu, 05 May 2005 21:01:11 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-913 'SC's design owes something to the original Max' -Presumingly referring to the 'pyrite-object' in Max... The SC-language and audio-engine as far as design goes, has nothing to do with Max/MSP of PD. ' Max Mathews' own Csound'' -Csound author is Richard Boulanger... ‘SC’s design owes something to the original Max’
-Presumingly referring to the ‘pyrite-object’
in Max…
The SC-language and audio-engine as far as design goes,
has nothing to do with Max/MSP of PD.

‘ Max Mathews’ own Csound”
-Csound author is Richard Boulanger…

]]> By: admin http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-912 admin Thu, 05 May 2005 19:59:17 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/05/05/maxmsp-and-pd-political-manifestos-and-free-music-software/#comment-912 All sorts of applications and hardware tools claims to be "designed for compositional minds" as if other things are not. A piano is designed for sensitive ears and compositional minds, too -- and it has all sorts of flaws. (And I'm a pianist.) Is it better than a trombone? I don't think so. I haven't seen any evidence that SuperCollider (or anything else) is somehow inherently superior to Max or Pd. (In fact, SC's design owes something to the original Max and Max Mathews' own Csound.) Sensitive ears / compositional mind / etc. -- again, depends on how you use your mind and ears, and if (hopefully) you're able to develop the chops you need for music that's satisfying to you. If you're more satisfied working in another tool, then great, be adventurous, find the tool that makes you happy! Peter All sorts of applications and hardware tools claims to be “designed for compositional minds” as if other things are not. A piano is designed for sensitive ears and compositional minds, too — and it has all sorts of flaws. (And I’m a pianist.) Is it better than a trombone? I don’t think so.

I haven’t seen any evidence that SuperCollider (or anything else) is somehow inherently superior to Max or Pd. (In fact, SC’s design owes something to the original Max and Max Mathews’ own Csound.)

Sensitive ears / compositional mind / etc. — again, depends on how you use your mind and ears, and if (hopefully) you’re able to develop the chops you need for music that’s satisfying to you. If you’re more satisfied working in another tool, then great, be adventurous, find the tool that makes you happy!

Peter

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