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	<title>Comments on: eMusic Defends Itself as Labels Leave; What About Online Growth, Musicians?</title>
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	<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/</link>
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		<title>By: g-lo</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/comment-page-1/#comment-173334</link>
		<dc:creator>g-lo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 03:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/#comment-173334</guid>
		<description>This isn&#039;t off topic, but perhaps parallel. Did any of you read the article a few weeks back in the NYT about the Farm Bill and how the government subsidizes certain things and how maybe that isn&#039;t good for our health or the land?

I know that sounds off topic but it seems to me there&#039;s something of an analogy here to what you&#039;re talking about Peter. Taking in the whole system. You&#039;re right about all the talk about music industry but not so much talk about musician industry.

If we had some solid numbers I bet I could cook us up a few charts all Tufte style that would make something clearer.

The guys who sell online that I talk to say they pretty much don&#039;t make anything off iTunes. The articles linked to this thread seem to support that hypothesis. If that&#039;s true then why leave eMusic to go after iTunes-style returns (i.e. not that much/nothing)?

It seems normal/appropriate that eMusic is looking after their clients (buyers of music who want cheap music that&#039;s interesting). Just like most restaurant owners would be more interested in serving inexpensive tasty meals to eaters than providing a solid living to farmers.

Keep going after this topic Peter. It&#039;s some of the most open-headed commentary on the topic I&#039;ve seen since the Pho days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This isn&#8217;t off topic, but perhaps parallel. Did any of you read the article a few weeks back in the NYT about the Farm Bill and how the government subsidizes certain things and how maybe that isn&#8217;t good for our health or the land?</p>
<p>I know that sounds off topic but it seems to me there&#8217;s something of an analogy here to what you&#8217;re talking about Peter. Taking in the whole system. You&#8217;re right about all the talk about music industry but not so much talk about musician industry.</p>
<p>If we had some solid numbers I bet I could cook us up a few charts all Tufte style that would make something clearer.</p>
<p>The guys who sell online that I talk to say they pretty much don&#8217;t make anything off iTunes. The articles linked to this thread seem to support that hypothesis. If that&#8217;s true then why leave eMusic to go after iTunes-style returns (i.e. not that much/nothing)?</p>
<p>It seems normal/appropriate that eMusic is looking after their clients (buyers of music who want cheap music that&#8217;s interesting). Just like most restaurant owners would be more interested in serving inexpensive tasty meals to eaters than providing a solid living to farmers.</p>
<p>Keep going after this topic Peter. It&#8217;s some of the most open-headed commentary on the topic I&#8217;ve seen since the Pho days.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirn</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/comment-page-1/#comment-173187</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 20:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/#comment-173187</guid>
		<description>I agree, D, and this saturation of overall spending is a huge issue. In fact, I&#039;m not convinced $10 is a good price point; maybe eMusic really does have the right idea. I just still feel as though we&#039;re having this discussion in a vacuum, without the kind of numbers that would make pricing decisions clearer. And it&#039;s still not clear what eMusic&#039;s model actually translates to for labels. We have a debate going between people like Pakman, the NY Times running an Op-Ed by a couple of former (failed) record owners who now end online ... where are the numbers on specific labels? Specific musicians? Better variables on the consumers? Some of this may well be out there in the form of proprietary data, of course. But that&#039;s why I&#039;d be even more interested, even just anecdotally, to see how you could experiment with alternative price points.

It&#039;s funny when you look at the subscription services, too, because they really wind up being absurdly cheap. You can&#039;t take your URGE music with you when you cancel, for instance, but at $15/mo, maybe you don&#039;t care. It&#039;s like having a radio subscription but with on-demand tracks. I certainly find that a better deal than most cable TV in terms of value for me, DRM or no. But then I wonder about musicians ... bringing us back to the eMusic question. (And theoretically, it would *seem* like URGE subscriptions would be *worse* for a label than eMusic, not better.)

If anyone runs across some better data, I&#039;d love to see it. RIAA&#039;s 10-mile view isn&#039;t all that helpful as far as underlying trends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, D, and this saturation of overall spending is a huge issue. In fact, I&#8217;m not convinced $10 is a good price point; maybe eMusic really does have the right idea. I just still feel as though we&#8217;re having this discussion in a vacuum, without the kind of numbers that would make pricing decisions clearer. And it&#8217;s still not clear what eMusic&#8217;s model actually translates to for labels. We have a debate going between people like Pakman, the NY Times running an Op-Ed by a couple of former (failed) record owners who now end online &#8230; where are the numbers on specific labels? Specific musicians? Better variables on the consumers? Some of this may well be out there in the form of proprietary data, of course. But that&#8217;s why I&#8217;d be even more interested, even just anecdotally, to see how you could experiment with alternative price points.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny when you look at the subscription services, too, because they really wind up being absurdly cheap. You can&#8217;t take your URGE music with you when you cancel, for instance, but at $15/mo, maybe you don&#8217;t care. It&#8217;s like having a radio subscription but with on-demand tracks. I certainly find that a better deal than most cable TV in terms of value for me, DRM or no. But then I wonder about musicians &#8230; bringing us back to the eMusic question. (And theoretically, it would *seem* like URGE subscriptions would be *worse* for a label than eMusic, not better.)</p>
<p>If anyone runs across some better data, I&#8217;d love to see it. RIAA&#8217;s 10-mile view isn&#8217;t all that helpful as far as underlying trends.</p>
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		<title>By: D</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/comment-page-1/#comment-173152</link>
		<dc:creator>D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 18:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/#comment-173152</guid>
		<description>Good comments, Peter.

The thing that I found important in what Dave Pakman was saying is that we should look at music purchases in the context of overall entertainment spending. Sure, we spent more on music in the 90s and before then, but we didn&#039;t spend anywhere near as much on things like broadband, DVDs, games. Your point on health care is an interesting one that dovetails with what he&#039;s saying.

It&#039;s also key to remember how few songs iTunes users really buy. Whereas on eMusic, you&#039;re going to download more by default to get your money&#039;s worth. I have the perception that eMusic users buy albums more frequently than iTunes people, but I have nothing to back that up (other than my mind boggling at the prospect of hunting down 90 single tracks to download per month)

The other thing to keep in mind is that digital download services have to compete with free. This was something Steve Jobs was talking about when they first introduced the iTunes store. To me personally, eMusic does a much better job at that than iTunes.

Finally, one little point: it&#039;s worth mentioning for those unfamiliar with it that unlike most subscription services, eMusic tracks are DRM-free and while you get a set number of track downloads a month, you keep the tracks. They don&#039;t expire if you stop paying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comments, Peter.</p>
<p>The thing that I found important in what Dave Pakman was saying is that we should look at music purchases in the context of overall entertainment spending. Sure, we spent more on music in the 90s and before then, but we didn&#8217;t spend anywhere near as much on things like broadband, DVDs, games. Your point on health care is an interesting one that dovetails with what he&#8217;s saying.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also key to remember how few songs iTunes users really buy. Whereas on eMusic, you&#8217;re going to download more by default to get your money&#8217;s worth. I have the perception that eMusic users buy albums more frequently than iTunes people, but I have nothing to back that up (other than my mind boggling at the prospect of hunting down 90 single tracks to download per month)</p>
<p>The other thing to keep in mind is that digital download services have to compete with free. This was something Steve Jobs was talking about when they first introduced the iTunes store. To me personally, eMusic does a much better job at that than iTunes.</p>
<p>Finally, one little point: it&#8217;s worth mentioning for those unfamiliar with it that unlike most subscription services, eMusic tracks are DRM-free and while you get a set number of track downloads a month, you keep the tracks. They don&#8217;t expire if you stop paying.</p>
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		<title>By: velocipede</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/comment-page-1/#comment-173147</link>
		<dc:creator>velocipede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 18:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/05/09/emusic-defends-itself-as-labels-leave-what-about-online-growth-musicians/#comment-173147</guid>
		<description>I think one of the key points is that more people are buying fewer tracks, but at higher prices on iTunes. If as many people subscribed to eMusic as use iTunes, then they would be spending more money individually and aggregately. But, the income would be spread among more artists and labels because each track is cheaper. 

It will be interesting to see if more labels are dissatisfied and leave. They should continue to do what they think is in their own best interest. (I do wonder, though, if some artists will lose income as a result of their labels pulling out of eMusic.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the key points is that more people are buying fewer tracks, but at higher prices on iTunes. If as many people subscribed to eMusic as use iTunes, then they would be spending more money individually and aggregately. But, the income would be spread among more artists and labels because each track is cheaper. </p>
<p>It will be interesting to see if more labels are dissatisfied and leave. They should continue to do what they think is in their own best interest. (I do wonder, though, if some artists will lose income as a result of their labels pulling out of eMusic.)</p>
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