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	<title>Comments on: Windows Does Jack: Multi-App Audio on Mac, Linux, and Now PC</title>
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		<title>By: Fabian</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-744086</link>
		<dc:creator>Fabian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-744086</guid>
		<description>In the last few days, I had *excactly* the idea of Oh Travioso: A Rewire-to-Jack bridge, just a small prog being the master of a rewire slave to enable those progs. can&#039;t be much of code. I saw the same licensing problems, as getting hands of the sdk is the first barrier (however Grand Nestor managed to do this, I&#039;d also like to take a look on it).

I&#039;d use it for live-jamming with several computers &amp; apps. Namely Ableton Live on one computer with Reason and on another PC FL Studio (and maybe some other weird stuff). Rewire just can&#039;t do the network thingie and this is where the strengths of netjack are (in addition of Jack&#039;s possibilities to route audio in ALL ways, not just from slave to master).
We could then use a common mixing app which lets everyone get his own headphone mix out + a main mix.

I first thought of network-enabling a virtual rewire-slave + a virtual receiving rewire host on the other side (FX Teleport 2 promised to gain that possibility, but the project died). Or extending Wormhole 2 for a standalone version which can host a plugin (as FL can be run as VSTi and at the moment we are doing excactly that with FX Teleport, but there are several buggy things with that one). But why reinventing the wheel?

So the Rewire-Minihost-Jack-Bridge would really be a wonderful solution as long as those commercial apps out there don&#039;t support Jack natively (and I don&#039;t expect one copmpany to jump out and say: &quot;Let&#039;s put in effort and pay a programmer to support that partially well working Jack thing even when it will be a bit complicated to setup for computer-unskilled musicians and even if there are no other apps out there supporting it&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the last few days, I had *excactly* the idea of Oh Travioso: A Rewire-to-Jack bridge, just a small prog being the master of a rewire slave to enable those progs. can&#8217;t be much of code. I saw the same licensing problems, as getting hands of the sdk is the first barrier (however Grand Nestor managed to do this, I&#8217;d also like to take a look on it).</p>
<p>I&#8217;d use it for live-jamming with several computers &amp; apps. Namely Ableton Live on one computer with Reason and on another PC FL Studio (and maybe some other weird stuff). Rewire just can&#8217;t do the network thingie and this is where the strengths of netjack are (in addition of Jack&#8217;s possibilities to route audio in ALL ways, not just from slave to master).<br />
We could then use a common mixing app which lets everyone get his own headphone mix out + a main mix.</p>
<p>I first thought of network-enabling a virtual rewire-slave + a virtual receiving rewire host on the other side (FX Teleport 2 promised to gain that possibility, but the project died). Or extending Wormhole 2 for a standalone version which can host a plugin (as FL can be run as VSTi and at the moment we are doing excactly that with FX Teleport, but there are several buggy things with that one). But why reinventing the wheel?</p>
<p>So the Rewire-Minihost-Jack-Bridge would really be a wonderful solution as long as those commercial apps out there don&#8217;t support Jack natively (and I don&#8217;t expect one copmpany to jump out and say: &#8220;Let&#8217;s put in effort and pay a programmer to support that partially well working Jack thing even when it will be a bit complicated to setup for computer-unskilled musicians and even if there are no other apps out there supporting it&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: Grant Nestor</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-498020</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Nestor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-498020</guid>
		<description>To respond to Oh Travioso&#039;s idea of a ReWire &gt; JACK bridge, I think that ReWire users definitely have something to gain. JACK offers much more than ReWire: it&#039;s more flexible in regards to patch configurations, it doesn&#039;t &quot;require&quot; client apps to adhere to its API (not confined to a set of apps), and it&#039;s  open-source. The majority of digital music is created using these ReWire-enabled applications...so it&#039;s important to get them working with JACK. It seems that the ReWire API could offer access to these apps&#039; tempo and transport data (and MIDI). If I&#039;m not mistaken, I believe that the VST API could too. I believe that VST/AU strategy was used for JACK OSX. In either case, I am fully behind the future development of JACK (jackdmp) for Windows and Mac OSX...meaning I will fund the effort, to see 1) JACK acquire full MIDI and control (tempo, transport) support with ReWire-enabled apps on Windows and Mac, 2) Improve it&#039;s UI to cater a more general audience, and 3) Reintegrate netJack with the standard JACK distribution. By the way, I&#039;ve got a copy of the ReWire SDK and the VST SDK is freely available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To respond to Oh Travioso&#8217;s idea of a ReWire &gt; JACK bridge, I think that ReWire users definitely have something to gain. JACK offers much more than ReWire: it&#8217;s more flexible in regards to patch configurations, it doesn&#8217;t &#8220;require&#8221; client apps to adhere to its API (not confined to a set of apps), and it&#8217;s  open-source. The majority of digital music is created using these ReWire-enabled applications&#8230;so it&#8217;s important to get them working with JACK. It seems that the ReWire API could offer access to these apps&#8217; tempo and transport data (and MIDI). If I&#8217;m not mistaken, I believe that the VST API could too. I believe that VST/AU strategy was used for JACK OSX. In either case, I am fully behind the future development of JACK (jackdmp) for Windows and Mac OSX&#8230;meaning I will fund the effort, to see 1) JACK acquire full MIDI and control (tempo, transport) support with ReWire-enabled apps on Windows and Mac, 2) Improve it&#8217;s UI to cater a more general audience, and 3) Reintegrate netJack with the standard JACK distribution. By the way, I&#8217;ve got a copy of the ReWire SDK and the VST SDK is freely available.</p>
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		<title>By: telstar falls &#187; Jack for Windoze!</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-325353</link>
		<dc:creator>telstar falls &#187; Jack for Windoze!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-325353</guid>
		<description>[...] OK, so I&#8217;m late to the party, but this is friggin&#8217; cool!Â  Jack is a killer audio routing widget for linux that allows multiple applications to participate in audio I/O streams.Â  There&#8217;s been no direct equivalent on windows, AFAIK, except for ReWire, and that&#8217;s not universally supported.Â  This port of Jack seems to have an ASIO backend, so all your audio apps can see it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] OK, so I&#8217;m late to the party, but this is friggin&#8217; cool!Â  Jack is a killer audio routing widget for linux that allows multiple applications to participate in audio I/O streams.Â  There&#8217;s been no direct equivalent on windows, AFAIK, except for ReWire, and that&#8217;s not universally supported.Â  This port of Jack seems to have an ASIO backend, so all your audio apps can see it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Davis</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-271173</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-271173</guid>
		<description>Oh Travioso: Propellerheads have *refused* to release the SDK to me, even though I have a registered business name in the state of Pennsylvania. They told me that they do not consider me to be a serious commercial software developer.

I&#039;m with Dan on this: if people are using ReWire-capable applications, I see little point in adding JACK into that setup. It gets more complex for them, and they don&#039;t really gain anything as a result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh Travioso: Propellerheads have *refused* to release the SDK to me, even though I have a registered business name in the state of Pennsylvania. They told me that they do not consider me to be a serious commercial software developer.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m with Dan on this: if people are using ReWire-capable applications, I see little point in adding JACK into that setup. It gets more complex for them, and they don&#8217;t really gain anything as a result.</p>
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		<title>By: Oh Travioso</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-269729</link>
		<dc:creator>Oh Travioso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-269729</guid>
		<description>Actually, you wouldn&#039;t even need to integrate Jack into the app for it to be functional.  Just make a mini ReWire host that doesn&#039;t do anything except pass through tempo and transport data and take the audio output of its ReWire slaves.  Then, Jack can take the output of that application and send it back to the ReWire slaves that can still accept input.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, you wouldn&#8217;t even need to integrate Jack into the app for it to be functional.  Just make a mini ReWire host that doesn&#8217;t do anything except pass through tempo and transport data and take the audio output of its ReWire slaves.  Then, Jack can take the output of that application and send it back to the ReWire slaves that can still accept input.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Nigrin</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-269701</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nigrin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-269701</guid>
		<description>Oh Travioso -- yes small market, but cool nonetheless... Maybe we&#039;ll take a look, but no promises though!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh Travioso &#8212; yes small market, but cool nonetheless&#8230; Maybe we&#8217;ll take a look, but no promises though!</p>
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		<title>By: sletz</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-268284</link>
		<dc:creator>sletz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-268284</guid>
		<description>I think one of the problem if getting the ReWire SDK. From the Propellerhead page: 

Propellerhead Software will issue licenses to companies in the audio or music industry interested in creating commercial ReWire applications.

There are no costs involved. Propellerhead Software will administer the authorization, copyrights, logos and trademarks. The company will also provide the licensee with technical support, free of charge.

Due to the legal aspects of the agreement you need to have a proper, registered company in order to qualify as a ReWire developer. We do not allow private persons, schools or companies in other types of businesses to become licensors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the problem if getting the ReWire SDK. From the Propellerhead page: </p>
<p>Propellerhead Software will issue licenses to companies in the audio or music industry interested in creating commercial ReWire applications.</p>
<p>There are no costs involved. Propellerhead Software will administer the authorization, copyrights, logos and trademarks. The company will also provide the licensee with technical support, free of charge.</p>
<p>Due to the legal aspects of the agreement you need to have a proper, registered company in order to qualify as a ReWire developer. We do not allow private persons, schools or companies in other types of businesses to become licensors.</p>
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		<title>By: markkilborn.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; JACK for Windows. Ohhhh yeah&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-268271</link>
		<dc:creator>markkilborn.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; JACK for Windows. Ohhhh yeah&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-268271</guid>
		<description>[...] Via: Create Digital Music [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Via: Create Digital Music [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Oh Travioso</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-268104</link>
		<dc:creator>Oh Travioso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-268104</guid>
		<description>ReWire works really well for what it does.  I find there&#039;s probably only a handful of people that have my problem.  They need to be live loopers using Ableton Live.  They need to doing more than just recording the input on an interface.  They need to be looping sounds coming from various pieces of software.  And, they have to be improvising and performing in order to want the flexibility of playing anything without changing the inputs to the tracks.  

Not a big market for that kind of product.  The only advantage I can think of for doing something like this is to merge all your audio outputs into one input and still have everything be in sync.  

It would be really useful for song sketches.  You would never have to stop making music to change some setting.  Just keep hitting record.  

This is mirroring the setup of having a hardware looper and a lot of gear actually.  Instead of having an echoplex, you have Abelton Live with a foot controller.  Instead of a bunch of instruments on stage, you have a laptop and a midi controller running a bunch of different software.  And instead of a mixer merging everything into one stereo signal to be sent to your looper, you have jackdmp running everything into a single stereo or mono input.  

And of course, if you have a drum machine that you&#039;re looping with, the Echoplex will work with MIDI clock to get the right tempo.  

Now, if you look at it that way, there&#039;s many more loopers out there.  But there&#039;s no way to do it all within software.  Not that I&#039;ve found yet.  

What would almost be ideal would be a Jack/ReWire hybrid.  A Jack style host that supports ReWire and takes the ReWire audio input but will also take the input of any app running JackRouter just as it does now.  Then, in this little host app, you have your patchbay where you can use programs that are running jackrouter and programs using rewire all together.  Send the outputs wherever you want, and any tempo/transport messages will just be passed through the host to all the slaves.  

Since ReWire is a known protocol and has been adopted by many different software programs.  Why not leverage its ubiquitousness into something more flexible?  

Did I sell you Mr. Nigrin?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ReWire works really well for what it does.  I find there&#8217;s probably only a handful of people that have my problem.  They need to be live loopers using Ableton Live.  They need to doing more than just recording the input on an interface.  They need to be looping sounds coming from various pieces of software.  And, they have to be improvising and performing in order to want the flexibility of playing anything without changing the inputs to the tracks.  </p>
<p>Not a big market for that kind of product.  The only advantage I can think of for doing something like this is to merge all your audio outputs into one input and still have everything be in sync.  </p>
<p>It would be really useful for song sketches.  You would never have to stop making music to change some setting.  Just keep hitting record.  </p>
<p>This is mirroring the setup of having a hardware looper and a lot of gear actually.  Instead of having an echoplex, you have Abelton Live with a foot controller.  Instead of a bunch of instruments on stage, you have a laptop and a midi controller running a bunch of different software.  And instead of a mixer merging everything into one stereo signal to be sent to your looper, you have jackdmp running everything into a single stereo or mono input.  </p>
<p>And of course, if you have a drum machine that you&#8217;re looping with, the Echoplex will work with MIDI clock to get the right tempo.  </p>
<p>Now, if you look at it that way, there&#8217;s many more loopers out there.  But there&#8217;s no way to do it all within software.  Not that I&#8217;ve found yet.  </p>
<p>What would almost be ideal would be a Jack/ReWire hybrid.  A Jack style host that supports ReWire and takes the ReWire audio input but will also take the input of any app running JackRouter just as it does now.  Then, in this little host app, you have your patchbay where you can use programs that are running jackrouter and programs using rewire all together.  Send the outputs wherever you want, and any tempo/transport messages will just be passed through the host to all the slaves.  </p>
<p>Since ReWire is a known protocol and has been adopted by many different software programs.  Why not leverage its ubiquitousness into something more flexible?  </p>
<p>Did I sell you Mr. Nigrin?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Nigrin</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/comment-page-1/#comment-268019</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nigrin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/09/13/windows-does-jack-multi-app-audio-on-mac-linux-and-now-pc/#comment-268019</guid>
		<description>Of course, now that I think about it a bit more, it&#039;s not going to be that useful after all, perhaps only to address the problem you&#039;re currently having...

If we would build a Rewire to Jack bridge just for MIDI, then the only apps that could take advantage of it are ReWire&#039;d apps in the first place, so why not just use ReWire altogether for both audio and MIDI... No need for Jack at all in those setups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, now that I think about it a bit more, it&#8217;s not going to be that useful after all, perhaps only to address the problem you&#8217;re currently having&#8230;</p>
<p>If we would build a Rewire to Jack bridge just for MIDI, then the only apps that could take advantage of it are ReWire&#8217;d apps in the first place, so why not just use ReWire altogether for both audio and MIDI&#8230; No need for Jack at all in those setups.</p>
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