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	<title>Comments on: Ableton&#8217;s Robert Henke, And Why Sometimes Less (&#8217;Fidelity&#8217;) is More</title>
	<atom:link href="http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/</link>
	<description>The latest gear, software, and techniques for electronic music production and performance</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Create Digital Music &#187; Albeton Live&#8217;s Non-Existent &#34;Secret&#34; Vocoder; No One Needs a Vocoder</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-449823</link>
		<dc:creator>Create Digital Music &#187; Albeton Live&#8217;s Non-Existent &#34;Secret&#34; Vocoder; No One Needs a Vocoder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 02:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-449823</guid>
		<description>[...] things we&#8217;d like to put on t-shirts. This is the same event at which Henke told a crowd that no one needs 64-bit, and sometimes you don&#8217;t even need [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] things we&#8217;d like to put on t-shirts. This is the same event at which Henke told a crowd that no one needs 64-bit, and sometimes you don&#8217;t even need [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Disquiet &#187; tangents / Video Streams (Shocklee, Monolake, machinima &#8230;)</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-427407</link>
		<dc:creator>Disquiet &#187; tangents / Video Streams (Shocklee, Monolake, machinima &#8230;)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 06:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-427407</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8230; Minimal techno figure Robert Henke (aka Monolake) presentation (video.google.com, via createdigitalmusic.com). &#8230; Laptop-enabled guitarist Christopher Willits lecture on his process (xlr8r.com). &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8230; Minimal techno figure Robert Henke (aka Monolake) presentation (video.google.com, via createdigitalmusic.com). &#8230; Laptop-enabled guitarist Christopher Willits lecture on his process (xlr8r.com). &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sph9000</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-426370</link>
		<dc:creator>sph9000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 02:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-426370</guid>
		<description>"You don’t even need 16-bit all the time"

I totally agree!

I actually really like low-fi sounds, and in these last times I do my best trying to sample old gear instead of using soft synths as VSTs in Live. I find the 80's electronic music recordings so raw, and sounding much better than modern electronic music. 
I understood the reason about this reading about recording techniques, and equipment used those times:
8 or 12bit samplers, FM and analogue synths, analogue mixers, tape recorders...
Is it possible to recreate a similar sound in Ableton now?
Redux doesn't really match the sound I'm intended to get, which should be like an Emulator II (8bit 27Khz), or an SP1200 (12bit 22Khz), or an AKAI Mpc2000...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You don’t even need 16-bit all the time&#8221;</p>
<p>I totally agree!</p>
<p>I actually really like low-fi sounds, and in these last times I do my best trying to sample old gear instead of using soft synths as VSTs in Live. I find the 80&#8217;s electronic music recordings so raw, and sounding much better than modern electronic music.<br />
I understood the reason about this reading about recording techniques, and equipment used those times:<br />
8 or 12bit samplers, FM and analogue synths, analogue mixers, tape recorders&#8230;<br />
Is it possible to recreate a similar sound in Ableton now?<br />
Redux doesn&#8217;t really match the sound I&#8217;m intended to get, which should be like an Emulator II (8bit 27Khz), or an SP1200 (12bit 22Khz), or an AKAI Mpc2000&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: digital lofi</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-423878</link>
		<dc:creator>digital lofi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-423878</guid>
		<description>@Paul Davis: Ignorance?

I wasn't trying to make any sort of pro/con argument, and fully admit I'm sorta out of my depth here. I was merely making a comment on who Cakewalk marketing is likely targeting with this boast, other than power-geeks who just want the latest and greatest and the most perceived bang for their buck.

I watched a video online somewhere that showed the inside of a large pro film scoring studio, where they had a server room of PCs networked, and a huge 128(?) channel board/controller. It was enlightening about who these companies are targeting with some these more high-spec features.

But what do I know? I work at 44.1/24. I keep the 64bit signal chain engaged but more from inertia - really what harm can it do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Paul Davis: Ignorance?</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t trying to make any sort of pro/con argument, and fully admit I&#8217;m sorta out of my depth here. I was merely making a comment on who Cakewalk marketing is likely targeting with this boast, other than power-geeks who just want the latest and greatest and the most perceived bang for their buck.</p>
<p>I watched a video online somewhere that showed the inside of a large pro film scoring studio, where they had a server room of PCs networked, and a huge 128(?) channel board/controller. It was enlightening about who these companies are targeting with some these more high-spec features.</p>
<p>But what do I know? I work at 44.1/24. I keep the 64bit signal chain engaged but more from inertia - really what harm can it do?</p>
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		<title>By: digital lofi &#187; BeatBurner: A Mini Review</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-422033</link>
		<dc:creator>digital lofi &#187; BeatBurner: A Mini Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 01:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-422033</guid>
		<description>[...] they are - off the top of my head I can think of 4 things I wish it did or did better - but since we&#8217;re all more or less in agreement that what sounds good is good no matter what goddamn bit-rate it was recorded at, it is a nice tool for getting some new use out [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] they are - off the top of my head I can think of 4 things I wish it did or did better - but since we&#8217;re all more or less in agreement that what sounds good is good no matter what goddamn bit-rate it was recorded at, it is a nice tool for getting some new use out [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Davis</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-422032</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 01:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-422032</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And honestly I think it’s more of selling point to audio production house and film scoring studios, where high-definition audio is actually important.&lt;/i&gt;

Man, these companies have technology users eating out their hand :) What makes you think that 64 bit versus 32 bit floating point is about high definition audio?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And honestly I think it’s more of selling point to audio production house and film scoring studios, where high-definition audio is actually important.</i></p>
<p>Man, these companies have technology users eating out their hand :) What makes you think that 64 bit versus 32 bit floating point is about high definition audio?</p>
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		<title>By: digital lofi</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-422025</link>
		<dc:creator>digital lofi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 01:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-422025</guid>
		<description>Just thought I'd point out, nothing in Sonar forces you to use the 64-bit signal chain; it's easy enough to turn off. And honestly I think it's more of selling point to audio production house and film scoring studios, where high-definition audio is actually important. i.e. Going more for the Nuendo market than the Ableton market. Though I guess the lines are more blurry than ever.

But I heartily agree with you, Peter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just thought I&#8217;d point out, nothing in Sonar forces you to use the 64-bit signal chain; it&#8217;s easy enough to turn off. And honestly I think it&#8217;s more of selling point to audio production house and film scoring studios, where high-definition audio is actually important. i.e. Going more for the Nuendo market than the Ableton market. Though I guess the lines are more blurry than ever.</p>
<p>But I heartily agree with you, Peter.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Randall</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-421983</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Randall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-421983</guid>
		<description>When did I post in this thread prior to this, Paul? Oh, wait, I didn't. I think you mean "Chris Blundell," although it's nice that you thought of me. But correcting me for the mistakes of others won't get me to say nice things about you. ;-)

My own opinion on the matter is generally the same as yours; there is no audible difference between 32-bit and 64-bit summing busses, all else being equal.

The problem is that hardly anything else is ever equal. 

-CR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When did I post in this thread prior to this, Paul? Oh, wait, I didn&#8217;t. I think you mean &#8220;Chris Blundell,&#8221; although it&#8217;s nice that you thought of me. But correcting me for the mistakes of others won&#8217;t get me to say nice things about you. ;-)</p>
<p>My own opinion on the matter is generally the same as yours; there is no audible difference between 32-bit and 64-bit summing busses, all else being equal.</p>
<p>The problem is that hardly anything else is ever equal. </p>
<p>-CR</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Davis</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-421904</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-421904</guid>
		<description>@Sjoerd: actually, Ardour had a 64 bit mixer and signal path several years before Reaper was even started. We dropped it because on the CPUs of the time, the extra 8-15% cycle hit from handling doubles rather than floats was too much of a hit for too little sonic gain.

@Chris Randall: "24 bit samples" and "64 bit processing" are not really related to each other. "24 bit samples" describes the format that your audio interface provides/receives. There is no h/w that provides even 32 bit samples at this time, and there almost certainly never will. Ask if you need to understand why, the answer is physics not technology. As Peter sort of indicated, the most important areas for "64 bit processing" are the bus/signal routing pathways used between elements of the processing chain, and the actual summing mixer itself. 

My own, decidedly non-double blind experience (you may therefore discount it entirely) is that computation with double precision floats *can* benefit audio synthesis, but has no detectable effect on summing mixers and even less on data pathways (compared to 32 bit ("single precision") floating point).

Finally, I'd like to remind everyone that CPUs have provided double precision floats, which is really what is being discussed here, for a long time. All that is new on modern CPUs is their ability to more efficiently use 64 bit *integer and pointer* values. Great, except that almost no audio software uses 64 bit integer values for any part of the signal processing pathway. As a result, the real win here, other than some relatively minor improvements in the system memory bus bandwidths that benefits dbl-precision floats as a side effect, is the ability to address more memory. File sizes larger than 4GB no longer need fun and games (though they do need something other than RIFF/WAV format :) and a boatload of samples cached in 8GB of RAM are all addressed without MS-style segmented addressing. Sweet for programmers, and perhaps even manna for users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sjoerd: actually, Ardour had a 64 bit mixer and signal path several years before Reaper was even started. We dropped it because on the CPUs of the time, the extra 8-15% cycle hit from handling doubles rather than floats was too much of a hit for too little sonic gain.</p>
<p>@Chris Randall: &#8220;24 bit samples&#8221; and &#8220;64 bit processing&#8221; are not really related to each other. &#8220;24 bit samples&#8221; describes the format that your audio interface provides/receives. There is no h/w that provides even 32 bit samples at this time, and there almost certainly never will. Ask if you need to understand why, the answer is physics not technology. As Peter sort of indicated, the most important areas for &#8220;64 bit processing&#8221; are the bus/signal routing pathways used between elements of the processing chain, and the actual summing mixer itself. </p>
<p>My own, decidedly non-double blind experience (you may therefore discount it entirely) is that computation with double precision floats *can* benefit audio synthesis, but has no detectable effect on summing mixers and even less on data pathways (compared to 32 bit (&#8221;single precision&#8221;) floating point).</p>
<p>Finally, I&#8217;d like to remind everyone that CPUs have provided double precision floats, which is really what is being discussed here, for a long time. All that is new on modern CPUs is their ability to more efficiently use 64 bit *integer and pointer* values. Great, except that almost no audio software uses 64 bit integer values for any part of the signal processing pathway. As a result, the real win here, other than some relatively minor improvements in the system memory bus bandwidths that benefits dbl-precision floats as a side effect, is the ability to address more memory. File sizes larger than 4GB no longer need fun and games (though they do need something other than RIFF/WAV format :) and a boatload of samples cached in 8GB of RAM are all addressed without MS-style segmented addressing. Sweet for programmers, and perhaps even manna for users.</p>
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		<title>By: mode</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-421885</link>
		<dc:creator>mode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/21/abletons-robert-henke-and-why-sometimes-less-bitrate-is-more/#comment-421885</guid>
		<description>Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet, but I just wanted to point out that DJ Shadow's classic first record, Entroducing, was done on an early, 12 bit version of the MPC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t had a chance to watch the video yet, but I just wanted to point out that DJ Shadow&#8217;s classic first record, Entroducing, was done on an early, 12 bit version of the MPC.</p>
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