Comments on: Digital Vinyl, Free and Open Source, in Max/MSP, Pd, Linux http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/ The latest gear, software, and techniques for electronic music production and performance Fri, 16 May 2008 21:56:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: ChuckEye http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-465247 ChuckEye Wed, 07 May 2008 03:36:05 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-465247 I'm not certain, but I believe one incarnation of Laurie Anderson's magnetic tape violin bow used control code instead of audio. Odd to think it's taken this long to do it with turntables... I’m not certain, but I believe one incarnation of Laurie Anderson’s magnetic tape violin bow used control code instead of audio. Odd to think it’s taken this long to do it with turntables…

]]> By: karhu http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459575 karhu Thu, 01 May 2008 21:53:08 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459575 Regarding other vinyls than finalscratch and serato: Most vinyls I have seen use a 1khz wave with a phase-difference of 90 deg on the channels. So determining the direction is a matter of comparing which waveform on the respective channel is leading. Determining the pitch is comparable to comparing the zero-crossings to the ones expected on the original waveform at 1khz - repectively at 33rpm. So the only parameters for pitch detection are: phase of the waveform (starting either at 0 or 180 deg) and the frequency of it. So I'd be surprised if exact pitch information couldn't be extracted from any of the available timecoders regardless of the used timecode-vinyl by adjusting the input channels/exchanging them and multiplying the decoded pitch by a constant factor. Regardless of this, I am interested to see how the timecode for the other vinyls is encoded. Regarding other vinyls than finalscratch and serato: Most vinyls I have seen use a 1khz wave with a phase-difference of 90 deg on the channels. So determining the direction is a matter of comparing which waveform on the respective channel is leading. Determining the pitch is comparable to comparing the zero-crossings to the ones expected on the original waveform at 1khz - repectively at 33rpm. So the only parameters for pitch detection are: phase of the waveform (starting either at 0 or 180 deg) and the frequency of it. So I’d be surprised if exact pitch information couldn’t be extracted from any of the available timecoders regardless of the used timecode-vinyl by adjusting the input channels/exchanging them and multiplying the decoded pitch by a constant factor. Regardless of this, I am interested to see how the timecode for the other vinyls is encoded.

]]> By: Peter Kirn http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459476 Peter Kirn Thu, 01 May 2008 19:46:02 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459476 Wallace, true ... we've mentioned Ms. Pinky ad infinitum. I should have said "mainstream DVS." Of the sort of major packages, Serato was the first. Even they're doing it as a plug-in, though, so I don't know whether that "counts" or not. Wallace, true … we’ve mentioned Ms. Pinky ad infinitum. I should have said “mainstream DVS.” Of the sort of major packages, Serato was the first. Even they’re doing it as a plug-in, though, so I don’t know whether that “counts” or not.

]]> By: beatfix http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459473 beatfix Thu, 01 May 2008 19:45:02 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459473 @nkem - You're right, instead of "platter" I should have said record. It just kills me that there's no way to read and interpret vinyl control techniques while using real records. The Numark X1 is interesting in that it uses a special spindle and "control platter" to allow for vinyl-style scratching of CDs, but it's not the same thing as scratching a regular record, and there's no obvious way to do it. Clearly we need smarter people than me working on this issue... :) @nkem - You’re right, instead of “platter” I should have said record. It just kills me that there’s no way to read and interpret vinyl control techniques while using real records.

The Numark X1 is interesting in that it uses a special spindle and “control platter” to allow for vinyl-style scratching of CDs, but it’s not the same thing as scratching a regular record, and there’s no obvious way to do it. Clearly we need smarter people than me working on this issue… :)

]]> By: nkem http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459456 nkem Thu, 01 May 2008 19:28:30 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459456 @beatfix, you want what?! You want a turntable that sends midi data to the computer based on "the hardware (platter speed / direction, tonearm position, etc.)" regardless of what the vinyl is doing? This doesn't make any sense to me. You don't cue a record with the platter... and you certainly don't scratch with a platter. Some djs only change the speed of a record with the platter & speed controls, but every dj has to touch teh vinyl at some point or another... some more than others. Never heard anyone with such a request before. @beatfix,
you want what?!

You want a turntable that sends midi data to the computer based on “the hardware (platter speed / direction, tonearm position, etc.)” regardless of what the vinyl is doing? This doesn’t make any sense to me.

You don’t cue a record with the platter… and you certainly don’t scratch with a platter. Some djs only change the speed of a record with the platter & speed controls, but every dj has to touch teh vinyl at some point or another… some more than others.

Never heard anyone with such a request before.

]]> By: Wallace Winfrey http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459444 Wallace Winfrey Thu, 01 May 2008 19:14:13 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459444 Re: Torq vinyl, I believe that support for all iterations of MsPinky vinyl, including Torq, is included in the Max objects, even for absolute mode. Full support for the Torq vinyl is also present in the SDK. "Only recently did a DVS, Serato, take on visuals..." Actually, Peter, I believe MsPinky was scratching visuals with MaxiPatchAV from the get-go...so technically scratching visuals with DVS has been around almost as long as DVS itself :-) Re: Torq vinyl, I believe that support for all iterations of MsPinky vinyl, including Torq, is included in the Max objects, even for absolute mode. Full support for the Torq vinyl is also present in the SDK.

“Only recently did a DVS, Serato, take on visuals…”

Actually, Peter, I believe MsPinky was scratching visuals with MaxiPatchAV from the get-go…so technically scratching visuals with DVS has been around almost as long as DVS itself :-)

]]> By: newmiracle http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459401 newmiracle Thu, 01 May 2008 18:18:05 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459401 beatfix, I believe with this max/pd app this might be close to what you're looking for. Of course it's not a self contained piece of hardware, but you might be tempted to forget that once you see the results. Aesop Rock's dj had a routine scratching video samples on ace's last tour. It was really fun (scratching an old 50's coffee commercial). Also, isn't there some kind of DVD faxcimile of CD decks that puts out video? I'm pretty sure that might get close to what you want- google around. beatfix, I believe with this max/pd app this might be close to what you’re looking for. Of course it’s not a self contained piece of hardware, but you might be tempted to forget that once you see the results.

Aesop Rock’s dj had a routine scratching video samples on ace’s last tour. It was really fun (scratching an old 50’s coffee commercial).

Also, isn’t there some kind of DVD faxcimile of CD decks that puts out video? I’m pretty sure that might get close to what you want- google around.

]]> By: beatfix http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459394 beatfix Thu, 01 May 2008 18:08:13 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459394 I still remember the first time I saw the EJ MIDI turntable (developed at MIT by Justin Kent and Nate Janos, among others) - it used an optical system, with crazy black-and-white custom vinyls, to scratch Quicktime movies. I thought to myself, "Awesome, but too bad it doesn't work with my regular records somehow". I've been following the digital vinyl scene ever since (Ms. Pinky, Final Scratch, Serato, Torq), and was always a bit put off by the fact that they all required this layer of timecode interpretation - always seemed inefficient to me. Just recently I saw a Numark product that perked my interest again - the X2 hybrid turntable. It's a fully functional vinyl turntable, that also uses the platter as a control device for CDs. http://www.turntablelab.com/dj_equipment/48/11/21438.html When someone makes a working turntable that also outputs control data (such as MIDI) directly from the hardware (platter speed / direction, tonearm position, etc.) - I'll be first in line to buy one. Finally, I will have the ability to mix, pitch, and scratch my existing records and simultaneously send control data to computers / video / what-have-you. I still remember the first time I saw the EJ MIDI turntable (developed at MIT by Justin Kent and Nate Janos, among others) - it used an optical system, with crazy black-and-white custom vinyls, to scratch Quicktime movies. I thought to myself, “Awesome, but too bad it doesn’t work with my regular records somehow”.

I’ve been following the digital vinyl scene ever since (Ms. Pinky, Final Scratch, Serato, Torq), and was always a bit put off by the fact that they all required this layer of timecode interpretation - always seemed inefficient to me.

Just recently I saw a Numark product that perked my interest again - the X2 hybrid turntable. It’s a fully functional vinyl turntable, that also uses the platter as a control device for CDs.
http://www.turntablelab.com/dj_equipment/48/11/21438.html

When someone makes a working turntable that also outputs control data (such as MIDI) directly from the hardware (platter speed / direction, tonearm position, etc.) - I’ll be first in line to buy one. Finally, I will have the ability to mix, pitch, and scratch my existing records and simultaneously send control data to computers / video / what-have-you.

]]> By: Peter Kirn http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459361 Peter Kirn Thu, 01 May 2008 17:32:45 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459361 Ah, I couldn't remember, but that sounds right. And, of course, for a lot of these kinds of applications you don't really care about absolute positioning, because you're turning the turntable into a controller. Then again, the vinyl isn't expensive, so it could be worth picking up a couple of actual Ms. Pinky records. (Plus then they can be pink.) Ah, I couldn’t remember, but that sounds right.

And, of course, for a lot of these kinds of applications you don’t really care about absolute positioning, because you’re turning the turntable into a controller. Then again, the vinyl isn’t expensive, so it could be worth picking up a couple of actual Ms. Pinky records. (Plus then they can be pink.)

]]> By: tobamai http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459359 tobamai Thu, 01 May 2008 17:28:26 +0000 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/05/01/digital-vinyl-free-and-open-source-in-maxmsp-pd-linux/#comment-459359 "The Torq vinyl is almost identical to the Ms Pinky Generation 4 vinyl. The only difference is that the digital position values encoded on the Torq vinyl are scrambled relative to the digital values on the Ms Pinky Generation 4 Vinyl." - from the pinkstah over on the ms pinky forum My experience is that torq vinyl works fine as gen 4 vinyl in relative mode (obviously, if the timestamps are scrambled, it won't work right in absolute mode) “The Torq vinyl is almost identical to the Ms Pinky Generation 4 vinyl. The only difference is that the digital position values encoded on the Torq vinyl are scrambled relative to the digital values on the Ms Pinky Generation 4 Vinyl.”

- from the pinkstah over on the ms pinky forum

My experience is that torq vinyl works fine as gen 4 vinyl in relative mode (obviously, if the timestamps are scrambled, it won’t work right in absolute mode)

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