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	<title>Comments on: Laptop Choices: Rain&#8217;s New LiveBooks</title>
	<atom:link href="http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/</link>
	<description>The latest gear, software, and techniques for electronic music production and performance</description>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-702568</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-702568</guid>
		<description>Apple vs PC arguments aside (I own both, screw the fanboys), to begin the article making an assumption that there is more hardware available for Apple than there is for PC is a total and obvious epic fail and a transparent asskiss to your favorite brand. Branding is for chumps... unless you get paid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apple vs PC arguments aside (I own both, screw the fanboys), to begin the article making an assumption that there is more hardware available for Apple than there is for PC is a total and obvious epic fail and a transparent asskiss to your favorite brand. Branding is for chumps&#8230; unless you get paid.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirn</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-702269</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-702269</guid>
		<description>Well said, Graham. Of course, the problem is, there&#039;s usually no way to know other than to buy the thing and wait (and even then, luck is a factor). And from my experience, price alone -- except at the extremes -- tells you almost nothing. So, you have to look at other experiences, ideally the stats folks like Consumer Reports have up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Graham. Of course, the problem is, there&#8217;s usually no way to know other than to buy the thing and wait (and even then, luck is a factor). And from my experience, price alone &#8212; except at the extremes &#8212; tells you almost nothing. So, you have to look at other experiences, ideally the stats folks like Consumer Reports have up.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Metcalfe</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-702265</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Metcalfe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-702265</guid>
		<description>I would say that there are fundamental differences in reliability between brands. Very inexpensive laptops, although sporting many of the same connections and overall internal architecture may be similar between PC brands and Macs, but the really inexpensive laptops will often use substandard (at least to those of us who like a maintenance free system) components. 

Although certain subsystems are sourced (CPU chipset, firewire interface, etc), there are many components such as capacitors (specifically) that can have a high failure rate. I have seen this borne out in a serial failure of Dell systems once they reached a certain age (about 1 1/2 - 2 years) from capacitor failure. This was company-wide, and the behavior was exhibited in a large majority of like-aged systems.

So when people say &quot;Macs are more reliable&quot; it is probably due, in part, to using better components at all levels throughout the physical system. I would imagine that systems by Rain and other more &quot;premium&quot; systems would share this attribute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say that there are fundamental differences in reliability between brands. Very inexpensive laptops, although sporting many of the same connections and overall internal architecture may be similar between PC brands and Macs, but the really inexpensive laptops will often use substandard (at least to those of us who like a maintenance free system) components. </p>
<p>Although certain subsystems are sourced (CPU chipset, firewire interface, etc), there are many components such as capacitors (specifically) that can have a high failure rate. I have seen this borne out in a serial failure of Dell systems once they reached a certain age (about 1 1/2 &#8211; 2 years) from capacitor failure. This was company-wide, and the behavior was exhibited in a large majority of like-aged systems.</p>
<p>So when people say &#8220;Macs are more reliable&#8221; it is probably due, in part, to using better components at all levels throughout the physical system. I would imagine that systems by Rain and other more &#8220;premium&#8221; systems would share this attribute.</p>
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		<title>By: pete</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-698735</link>
		<dc:creator>pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-698735</guid>
		<description>Like I said in my first post, I was doing a lot of work keeping malware at bay, drives healthy, drivers playing nice, registry healthy... I have not been in a position to run DAWs on both platforms the whole time.  I literally kept a spreadsheet where I tallied up the time I spent doing cleanup and maint tasks, and it was too much time.  Maybe 5-10% of my total use.  I do a lot of pre-emptive data backup and archiving no matter what platform I&#039;m on, but this seemed to be a case of MS laying their shortcomings off on the user.  When I switched it was the 95 to XP transition, and neither was a low maintenance proposition.  I&#039;m also not arguing that the stability gap isn&#039;t as wide as it once was, but I have 5 years of very smooth sailing on OS X behind me, not 5 years of watching MS platforms get incrementally more stable and secure.  MS lost me as a user for my music and video work.  They would have to really show me something to get me to think about going back.  So far they haven&#039;t.  I&#039;ll still put the out of the box performance and software bundle that comes on a MBP up against the $1200 WinTel laptops that everybody points to as being proof that Apple is overpriced.  Similar example: I dealt with HP back in the 80&#039;s, and they were the most expensive game in town.  I heard a lot of &quot;overpriced&quot; talk back then too.  My HP41CV still kicks out the RPN after 27 years.  I love that ultra low TCO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like I said in my first post, I was doing a lot of work keeping malware at bay, drives healthy, drivers playing nice, registry healthy&#8230; I have not been in a position to run DAWs on both platforms the whole time.  I literally kept a spreadsheet where I tallied up the time I spent doing cleanup and maint tasks, and it was too much time.  Maybe 5-10% of my total use.  I do a lot of pre-emptive data backup and archiving no matter what platform I&#8217;m on, but this seemed to be a case of MS laying their shortcomings off on the user.  When I switched it was the 95 to XP transition, and neither was a low maintenance proposition.  I&#8217;m also not arguing that the stability gap isn&#8217;t as wide as it once was, but I have 5 years of very smooth sailing on OS X behind me, not 5 years of watching MS platforms get incrementally more stable and secure.  MS lost me as a user for my music and video work.  They would have to really show me something to get me to think about going back.  So far they haven&#8217;t.  I&#8217;ll still put the out of the box performance and software bundle that comes on a MBP up against the $1200 WinTel laptops that everybody points to as being proof that Apple is overpriced.  Similar example: I dealt with HP back in the 80&#8217;s, and they were the most expensive game in town.  I heard a lot of &#8220;overpriced&#8221; talk back then too.  My HP41CV still kicks out the RPN after 27 years.  I love that ultra low TCO.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirn</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-698532</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-698532</guid>
		<description>Oh, yeah, I believe you, I&#039;m just wonder, specifically: what&#039;s the source of this &quot;massive amount of maintenance?&quot; I&#039;m just finding with the right setup I&#039;m not actually doing that ... at least not beyond other platforms. The things you mention to me aren&#039;t really issues right now, though they have been nastier in the past.

I wouldn&#039;t go so far as to say Vista is a major improvement for A/V work. We haven&#039;t really seen huge performance dividends from any of the changes. I would say it&#039;s reasonably well supported at this point. That&#039;s a huge change from where it was even a year ago.

Yeah, here here on Amiga ... and Be, and Atari and a whole bunch of boxes that focused more effectively on multimedia. (Amazing, this thing called &quot;progress.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, yeah, I believe you, I&#8217;m just wonder, specifically: what&#8217;s the source of this &#8220;massive amount of maintenance?&#8221; I&#8217;m just finding with the right setup I&#8217;m not actually doing that &#8230; at least not beyond other platforms. The things you mention to me aren&#8217;t really issues right now, though they have been nastier in the past.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t go so far as to say Vista is a major improvement for A/V work. We haven&#8217;t really seen huge performance dividends from any of the changes. I would say it&#8217;s reasonably well supported at this point. That&#8217;s a huge change from where it was even a year ago.</p>
<p>Yeah, here here on Amiga &#8230; and Be, and Atari and a whole bunch of boxes that focused more effectively on multimedia. (Amazing, this thing called &#8220;progress.&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: pete</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-698517</link>
		<dc:creator>pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-698517</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with you on this Peter.  MS has made some big gains in stability.  But it isn&#039;t like I don&#039;t deal with PCs on a daily basis.  I still maintain my wife&#039;s XP machine (Thinkpad), a small group of XP Pro SP3 machines at my job, and a few laptops used by folks who work in the field (off site).  Sure, My last PC DAW was 5 years ago, but I still keep up on the PC platform.  I can thin of plenty of things that Apple can do better.  But my impetus to switch was the massive amount of maintenance that my MS workstations needed to perform at top speed.  My Apple boxes have been a lot less hassle and they perform very well.  I think that the MHZ argument of old still holds.  The same CPU has more power available to the user under OS X than under Windows.  

I don&#039;t use Vista, and would like to have a chance to at some point, but it still seems like folks are downgrading from it with old copies of XP/2000 or with OEM setups.  I haven&#039;t seen a lot of Vista penetration in the workplace.  If it is a stable and well supported OS for A/V work, I&#039;ll take your word for it.

Now... where is my Amiga?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you on this Peter.  MS has made some big gains in stability.  But it isn&#8217;t like I don&#8217;t deal with PCs on a daily basis.  I still maintain my wife&#8217;s XP machine (Thinkpad), a small group of XP Pro SP3 machines at my job, and a few laptops used by folks who work in the field (off site).  Sure, My last PC DAW was 5 years ago, but I still keep up on the PC platform.  I can thin of plenty of things that Apple can do better.  But my impetus to switch was the massive amount of maintenance that my MS workstations needed to perform at top speed.  My Apple boxes have been a lot less hassle and they perform very well.  I think that the MHZ argument of old still holds.  The same CPU has more power available to the user under OS X than under Windows.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t use Vista, and would like to have a chance to at some point, but it still seems like folks are downgrading from it with old copies of XP/2000 or with OEM setups.  I haven&#8217;t seen a lot of Vista penetration in the workplace.  If it is a stable and well supported OS for A/V work, I&#8217;ll take your word for it.</p>
<p>Now&#8230; where is my Amiga?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirn</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-698465</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-698465</guid>
		<description>Pete, I agree on principle (think value, not raw sticker price), but:

Defrags: Now automatic on Vista. And there&#039;s no demonstration that this is any different on *any* modern OS.

Virus/malware: Is this really still an issue for anyone? Basic precautions seem fine. The only issue I&#039;ve had is crap like Norton slowing down machines -- currently recommending Avast and/or Comodo, both lightweight and free and easily disabled during gigs, etc.

Registry: Be careful what you install. Run Revo Uninstaller to remove apps, not the default uninstaller (it&#039;s free). And anyway, Mac OS and Linux have file maintenance issues of their own -- the Mac has some bizarre UNIX issues.

Cloning a drive: Well, getting a PC to boot off of Windows, I&#039;ll admit, is a pain; I use Linux for rescue situations. But cloning isn&#039;t terribly difficult.

Regular reinstalls: Quite frankly, again, this can be a problem with any OS. It *shouldn&#039;t* be a problem, but it is -- there are so many variables that sometimes a clean install is the quickest way to speed up a system. (And, literally, I&#039;ve watched this happen with Mac OS and Linux as well as Windows. On Mac, my tool of choice is Onyx.) 

I hear you, and of course I hear horror stories. I&#039;m just currently not having any more difficulty maintaining my main Windows box than my Mac box. Both are working just fine. Like I said, I don&#039;t want to start another OS war, but I have to state the obvious here: despite all our gripes, these OSes have matured. If we&#039;re going to hold these problems against them, I think they have to demonstrably *current* issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, I agree on principle (think value, not raw sticker price), but:</p>
<p>Defrags: Now automatic on Vista. And there&#8217;s no demonstration that this is any different on *any* modern OS.</p>
<p>Virus/malware: Is this really still an issue for anyone? Basic precautions seem fine. The only issue I&#8217;ve had is crap like Norton slowing down machines &#8212; currently recommending Avast and/or Comodo, both lightweight and free and easily disabled during gigs, etc.</p>
<p>Registry: Be careful what you install. Run Revo Uninstaller to remove apps, not the default uninstaller (it&#8217;s free). And anyway, Mac OS and Linux have file maintenance issues of their own &#8212; the Mac has some bizarre UNIX issues.</p>
<p>Cloning a drive: Well, getting a PC to boot off of Windows, I&#8217;ll admit, is a pain; I use Linux for rescue situations. But cloning isn&#8217;t terribly difficult.</p>
<p>Regular reinstalls: Quite frankly, again, this can be a problem with any OS. It *shouldn&#8217;t* be a problem, but it is &#8212; there are so many variables that sometimes a clean install is the quickest way to speed up a system. (And, literally, I&#8217;ve watched this happen with Mac OS and Linux as well as Windows. On Mac, my tool of choice is Onyx.) </p>
<p>I hear you, and of course I hear horror stories. I&#8217;m just currently not having any more difficulty maintaining my main Windows box than my Mac box. Both are working just fine. Like I said, I don&#8217;t want to start another OS war, but I have to state the obvious here: despite all our gripes, these OSes have matured. If we&#8217;re going to hold these problems against them, I think they have to demonstrably *current* issues.</p>
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		<title>By: pete</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-698454</link>
		<dc:creator>pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-698454</guid>
		<description>The mac-v-pc value debate can&#039;t be resolved by looking at hardware prices.  I ran PCs for a long time (Sonic Foundry ACID and Vegas back then) and I switched to Apple because I actually started counting the hours I was putting into maintenance.  Defrags, virus and malware cleanups, fending off msbloat, dealing with the aftermath of programs that leave their droppings all over the registry...  All that work and after 6 months my PC was ripe for another reinstall.  That was time I could have been using to become something other than a XP Maintenance Expert.  I&#039;ve been running those machine as part of my job since DOS.. so don&#039;t think I was new to it.  My cred timeline goes back to programming BASIC on a TTY printer with paper tape, and a 300 baud acoustic coupler.  So bite me.  M$ never sent me a check for all of that downtime.  

Also... ever try to clone an XP system drive?  It is enough to drive me back to the freakin church.  I have a complete, bootable, external FW drive that I can actually run from if my internal were to die.  I refresh the backup once a week.  When I replaced the drive in my iBook... I duped it to an external drive, swapped in the new unit, booted from the external, cloned it back, and went on with my life.  OS X is a real OS, and Apple doesn&#039;t assume that I want to spend my evenings watching a progress bar.  My old iBook is currently living a life of leisure at my mom&#039;s house, quietly displacing her ancient 586 machine.  My MBP has been a rock of reliability, and it does... just work.  

I&#039;m happy to have a XP Pro machine on my desktop at my job because some IT intern gets to deal with that junk while I go on about my day, and I keep getting paid.  But at home, in the studio, at gigs... my time has been paid back in spades since I stopped trying to beat back the tide with a broom on a PC.  Sure, I could have a commodity PC for less.  But I&#039;ll put my TCO (i GOTS to get paid) up against that M$ lifestyle any day of the week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mac-v-pc value debate can&#8217;t be resolved by looking at hardware prices.  I ran PCs for a long time (Sonic Foundry ACID and Vegas back then) and I switched to Apple because I actually started counting the hours I was putting into maintenance.  Defrags, virus and malware cleanups, fending off msbloat, dealing with the aftermath of programs that leave their droppings all over the registry&#8230;  All that work and after 6 months my PC was ripe for another reinstall.  That was time I could have been using to become something other than a XP Maintenance Expert.  I&#8217;ve been running those machine as part of my job since DOS.. so don&#8217;t think I was new to it.  My cred timeline goes back to programming BASIC on a TTY printer with paper tape, and a 300 baud acoustic coupler.  So bite me.  M$ never sent me a check for all of that downtime.  </p>
<p>Also&#8230; ever try to clone an XP system drive?  It is enough to drive me back to the freakin church.  I have a complete, bootable, external FW drive that I can actually run from if my internal were to die.  I refresh the backup once a week.  When I replaced the drive in my iBook&#8230; I duped it to an external drive, swapped in the new unit, booted from the external, cloned it back, and went on with my life.  OS X is a real OS, and Apple doesn&#8217;t assume that I want to spend my evenings watching a progress bar.  My old iBook is currently living a life of leisure at my mom&#8217;s house, quietly displacing her ancient 586 machine.  My MBP has been a rock of reliability, and it does&#8230; just work.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m happy to have a XP Pro machine on my desktop at my job because some IT intern gets to deal with that junk while I go on about my day, and I keep getting paid.  But at home, in the studio, at gigs&#8230; my time has been paid back in spades since I stopped trying to beat back the tide with a broom on a PC.  Sure, I could have a commodity PC for less.  But I&#8217;ll put my TCO (i GOTS to get paid) up against that M$ lifestyle any day of the week.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirn</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-698412</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-698412</guid>
		<description>Well, I have a Toshiba laptop that&#039;s now six years old that I actually *wished* would die on a couple of occasions ... still ticking along. :)

I think the late-model aluminum MacBook Pros are a really solid machine. The new generation, of course, still a bit new to call. 

The aluminum case can make a big difference ... it&#039;ll scratch and dent if beat up, but remains structurally sound and protects the stuff inside. So it is interesting Rain has gone to the aluminum.

There are definitely PC makers, at least, that are roughly on par with Apple (to the point that I wouldn&#039;t give either an edge), and it&#039;s well worth going with them for their numbers. Particularly take a look at actual, quantitative return rates ... *not* customer satisfaction reports, even on reliability, because that&#039;s a qualitative measure. I know Lenovo does well even in the post-IBM era, I&#039;ve been impressed with lesser-known brands like Asus and MSI... now I have to go pull up those numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I have a Toshiba laptop that&#8217;s now six years old that I actually *wished* would die on a couple of occasions &#8230; still ticking along. :)</p>
<p>I think the late-model aluminum MacBook Pros are a really solid machine. The new generation, of course, still a bit new to call. </p>
<p>The aluminum case can make a big difference &#8230; it&#8217;ll scratch and dent if beat up, but remains structurally sound and protects the stuff inside. So it is interesting Rain has gone to the aluminum.</p>
<p>There are definitely PC makers, at least, that are roughly on par with Apple (to the point that I wouldn&#8217;t give either an edge), and it&#8217;s well worth going with them for their numbers. Particularly take a look at actual, quantitative return rates &#8230; *not* customer satisfaction reports, even on reliability, because that&#8217;s a qualitative measure. I know Lenovo does well even in the post-IBM era, I&#8217;ve been impressed with lesser-known brands like Asus and MSI&#8230; now I have to go pull up those numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Swami Digital</title>
		<link>http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/comment-page-1/#comment-698042</link>
		<dc:creator>Swami Digital</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 12:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/11/14/laptop-choices-rains-new-livebooks/#comment-698042</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t get me wrong I use a PC for many things, and custom built PCs provide plenty of value over anything Apple sells.  I was just speaking from my experience about what makes a laptop good.  I&#039;ve used every PC laptop brand under the sun before going to the Macbook Pro.  (And that too only after I had the option of bootcamp if I wanted.)  The reason they&#039;ve gained my brand loyalty is reliability.  I&#039;ve had my MBP knocked over onto a concrete floor in India, and it didn&#039;t take more than a scratch.  When you&#039;re 10,000 miles away from home and you need your laptop to be reliable for on-location recording, you really sweat out those small percentage points of reliability difference.  

I would love to see a PC laptop with the kind of reliability that I&#039;ve gotten out of my MacBook Pro.  If Rain has made that laptop they have won a fan out of me!  I was just pointing out that you can&#039;t tell how good a laptop is by features, or at launch.  You have to wait some time and see how it performs.  That&#039;s what I was trying to say rather than touch off a pointless mac vs. pc debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong I use a PC for many things, and custom built PCs provide plenty of value over anything Apple sells.  I was just speaking from my experience about what makes a laptop good.  I&#8217;ve used every PC laptop brand under the sun before going to the Macbook Pro.  (And that too only after I had the option of bootcamp if I wanted.)  The reason they&#8217;ve gained my brand loyalty is reliability.  I&#8217;ve had my MBP knocked over onto a concrete floor in India, and it didn&#8217;t take more than a scratch.  When you&#8217;re 10,000 miles away from home and you need your laptop to be reliable for on-location recording, you really sweat out those small percentage points of reliability difference.  </p>
<p>I would love to see a PC laptop with the kind of reliability that I&#8217;ve gotten out of my MacBook Pro.  If Rain has made that laptop they have won a fan out of me!  I was just pointing out that you can&#8217;t tell how good a laptop is by features, or at launch.  You have to wait some time and see how it performs.  That&#8217;s what I was trying to say rather than touch off a pointless mac vs. pc debate.</p>
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