maxinlive

Max for Live is now available, fusing the multimedia, visual programming environment of Max/MSP/Jitter with the plug-in hosting and sequencing and clip-launching and recording of Ableton Live. With two complex products interacting, there are plenty of questions to answer. I asked Michael Chenetz, the creator of the online tutorial site and community max4live.info, to tell us what major points we shouldn’t miss.

Here for launch week are Michael’s answers, information on what you get in the box (including videos from Ableton), plus the best video tutorials from Michael’s site to get you oriented in the new tool – and to begin to determine wheterh Max for Live is for you.

1. You get more than a blank slate – Pluggo and more come in the box.

If you’re wondering how to justify the roughly $300 most people will pay for Max for Live – particularly if you aren’t a Max owner and may not be able to do much with it until you learn it – there is some significant relief. The package comes with a number of pretty powerful instruments and effects you can use right away, even if you aren’t going to have much going with your own patches right away. Some (but not all) of the Pluggo collection plug-ins are included. See the full description below.

pluggo_in_live

2. Know your LOM (Live Object Model).

The Live Object Model describes how your Max patch interacts with all the stuff Live does. It looks complex, but it’s basically a hierarchy that allows you to connect to many of the clip, set, and control surface functions in live. (Not all – see below.) The LOM is to the Live API as the NYC subway map is to the NYC subway – it’s the map that describes the thing that helps you get around.

Interaction with Live is, of course, a big part of the appeal of Max for Live. After all, while you can build sequencers and instruments and effects and video players, you could do that before – it’s the promised integration that’s new.

Live integration currently includes both the ability to provide user interface elements for your patch that appear within Live’s Device display – and behave (mostly) as built-in Devices would – and hooks into Live’s own behavior.

liveobjectmodel

You can do almost anything with the Live Object Model and the Live API, but here’s one notable catch:

3. You can’t access absolute Clip position, or directly update clips.

Michael writes, “Accessing absolute Clip position is currently not available. Please do not ask again. They know and they are working on it. :-)

Update: The Live API is also not yet as complete in its capabilities as the mouse. As noted in comments, you can’t directly add audio and MIDI clips, either.

4. You can’t use SysEx.

System Exclusive messages are currently filtered in Live and thus not available through a Max for Live patch. This allows Live to use those messages for interaction with control surfaces. However, you can access some control surface functions through the Live API, so while that won’t help with everything you might want to do with hardware using SysEx, it should be useful for some tasks.

This does illustrate a case in which there’s still some advantage to applications that access input and output independently from the host.

5. You can use Open Sound Control.

OSC is the next-generation, networkable, human-readable messaging standard for multimedia.There’s still no native support in Live for OSC. But as a Max for Live user, you have the same access to OSC that you would in Max, via TCP or UDP. That means one big role for Max for Live is likely to be mapping input from OSC-sending tools like iPhone controllers and other software to and from Live.

max4live.info: Tutorial M4L Lemur and OSC from max4live on Vimeo.

6. You can control Live-ready control surfaces like the APC40, Launchpad.

Devices like the Launchpad, APC40, and any of the control surfaces you see defined in the Live Control Surfaces dialog should be able to be addressed right from Max for Live patches. Correction: It seems only “official” Ableton devices, currently meaning the APC40 and Launchpad, are supported, though you can communicate with anything else via MIDI (just not set up as a control surface per se, as a MIDI input device). Michael writes, “If you use a hardware controller the is made for Ableton, then you can access its functions through the Live API control_surface object. Basically made-for-Ableton devices differentiate themselves by using Python scripts in the MIDI Rremote directory that define the functions available in Live.”

Now, the interesting twist here is that, as far as I know, this should work not only for Ableton-approved devices like the APC40, but also for scripts like those for the KORG Nano Series we’ve run here on CDM. You might actually want to hack together your own interactions with Max patches instead of using these control surface options for those controllers, however. This will obviously be something we cover more over time.

7. You can store presets for Max within a Live Set.

This is where the integration gets really cool. You can not only load specific Max creations with a set, but presets inside your patches.

8. Max, Jitter, and MSP are accessible through Live depending on your License.

For those unfamiliar with Max, it’s divided into three groups of tools and their associated objects. Max is the original part of Max, handling basic math, simple messages and lists, and MIDI. MSP does audio-rate signal processing for sound, synthesis, and effects. Jitter does matrix processing of video, graphics, and 3D geometry.

All three are included, in their entirety, inside Max for Live, and they all work as expected. Audio and MIDI routing aren’t directly accessible, as they come from Live – but that’s what you want. One catch, though, is that Jitter disables its output when you edit patches in Live unless you own a full Max/MSP/Jitter license, separate from your Max for Live license, but that’s something to address in a separate story. All will run inside Live with complete functionality, however.

9. Read the manual – both of them.

RTFM? Michael suggests, “Take the time to learn. Check out the documentation and tutorials available in Live and in Max. There are actually two different areas in which this information exists.”

You’ll find both documentation inside Live itself – where the tutorials are – and in Max for Live. These remain the best place to begin. That said, any documentation online on either Max or its very similar open-source cousin Pd may prove helpful for solving a specific problem.

In other words, look under Live’s manual and Lessons (now found at View > Help View, as seen  below) and in the Help menu and manual and documentation in Max itself.

wheretogo

10. Don’t forget to have fun.

I know, I know – top ten lists are often padded with extraneous filler items. But this is probably the most important thing to mention on this list.

Michael is already a convert, of course, in that he runs a community for the tool, but in talking to him over the last few weeks, he’s been really positive about the experience – even with background in many other development tools. And he has had a great time, and believes other folks will, too.

“It may be a learning experience for new users, but it is definitely worth it in the end,” Michael says.

And maybe that’s the real bottom line – whatever you do, have fun. Having taught Max/MSP in the past (at Brooklyn College, among other places), I’ve noted that sometimes it’s doing really simple things that makes these tools useful. Enjoy what you’re doing, and you’ll be more productive.

What’s in the Box, from Ableton

Ableton provides a video overview above of what comes in Max for Live. Included in the package:

  • Step Sequencer: 16-steps, adjustable step size and probability, shift, random mode, real-time MIDI control
  • Buffer Shuffler: randomized, shuffled audio reordering with different patterns, beyond what is possible with Beat Repeat
  • Loop Shifter: trigger playback with MIDI notes, change rate + loop points + filter, morph between states, auto-play without MIDI
  • Pluggo For Live: 40 devices from the original Pluggo collection
  • Building blocks from Pluggo: basic functions that can be easily combined into your own creations
  • Button matrix step sequencer: a step sequencer for grid controllers like the APC40 and Launchpad. (Apparently only those two “official” devices are currently supported; I’m confirming this.)

Because the devices included with Max for Live are really patches, they can be unlocked, modified, mashed up, or turned into your own creations. That had long been a big advantage of Reaktor, but even the full version of Max/MSP/Jitter, for all its included examples, didn’t have some of these kinds of demonstrations.

UPDATED – Max 5.1, gets some additions too: The new objects – though not these whole patches – are included with Max 5.1. That means that, while they’re a strong incentive for those new to Max, some existing Max users may wind up being satisfied building their stuff in Max and skipping Max for Live. After all, a lot of the live performance rigs today – like the monome’s now-legendary MLR patch, used most famously by Daedelus – don’t rely on any other software. Regardless of what makes sense in your work, it’s nice to see Max 5.1 benefiting from Max for Live’s improvements.

Getting Started Tutorials, from max4live.info

I think the folks at Ableton and Cycling ‘74 expect most people to be interested primarily in making musical instruments and effects. But what I hear from a lot of Live users is that they really want to know more about the API and how they can control Live itself. Michael has put together two fantastic tutorials on the subject.

The first video details how to work with the API and the LOM, so that your patches can interact with what’s happening in the set.

Max For Live Paths, Objects, and Observers from max4live on Vimeo.

The second video talks about how to work with clips.

Max For Live Clips tutorial from max4live on Vimeo.

Pricing

Here’s the simplest breakdown possible:

First, you’ll need a copy of Ableton Live 8 or Ableton Live Suite 8. Earlier versions won’t work, and neither will any of the LE/Lite/Starter editions. You’ll need the full-blown Live. (That’s too bad, in a way, as I imagined the idea of buying the cheapest Live possible and then building everything yourself!)

You own Max 5. You can add Max for Live for US$99/EUR79.

You own Live, but not Max 5. You can add Max for Live for US$299/EUR249.

You don’t own Live 8/Live Suite 8/Max 5. Discounted pricing is available.

You own Pluggo 3, Mode 1, or Hipno 1 or later. A US$49/EUR39 coupon is available via Cycling ‘74.

You own an earlier version of Max. You need to upgrade to Max 5 first. You might consider the Live/Max bundle if you don’t yet own Live.

Academic pricing. There’s no individual academic pricing, and the 9-month Max 5 license doesn’t do anything for you (though you are, as before, eligible for $39 off a full Max 5 copy). Institutions are able to get a discount, though; email Ableton educational sales.

For the record, the version that supports all of this on the Max side is 5.1, and on Live’s side is 8.1.

Where to Go for More Information

Max for Live Product Page

Ableton Max for Live FAQ

Cycling ’74 Max for Live Product Page + FAQ + Resources

Our friend Andrew Benson did a really wonderful round-up of all the things people are doing with Max for Live. I could plagiarize the thing, but I’ll let you read it at the source. (There are some useful resources in comments, too.)

The Edit Button Has Been Pressed [Cycling ‘74 Blog]

And of course, be sure to follow Michael’s superb resource:

http://www.max4live.info/

Nick Rothwell is also blogging on M4L topics:

http://maxforlive.loadbang.net/

  • http://djfamily.ru m-clis

    Great review!

  • http://thomaspiperjr.com Tom Piper

    Just Got Max4Live Very cool check out this patch from maxforlive.com that give you automation in the session view
    http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=5

    and join my Vimeo Group
    http://vimeo.com/groups/nonome

  • http://www.radek.koshimazaki.com Radek

    It all looks really cool. I wonder how stable is it though.

  • http://designingsound.noisepages.com Miguel

    Great stuff!!

  • booji

    Does anyone know what Jitter-oriented patches (if any) are included with the base Max4Live package? I have simple video tasks I want it to do and it's frustrating to hear Jitter development is "extra".

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    Big Up CDM and max4live site resources!

  • http://www.eatyone.com EATYone

    Thanks for this very cool ticket :)

  • http://filchmedia.squarespace.com Filch

    Ack! Still no Sysex support for my hardware synths. I thought M4L would be my holy grail and adding the final piece I needed to fully integrate everything.

    Are there ANY workarounds to this? Is anyone out there using hardware synths via SYSEX and LIVE?

  • http://max4live.info Michael Chenetz

    Thanks Peter… I try very hard to create a site online where people can learn and collaborate. I really do hope everyone has fun learning Max For Live. I am very excitied to see what people come up with.

    If anyone is in NY on Decemeber 12th then come to the in/out festival at the tank.

    Peter will be doing a workshop on Music Shapes and messages which talks about interesting ways to integrate shapes and graphics with OSC and sound. I don't know what he has in mind, but sounds very interesting! I am really interested in seeing this.

    I am teaching a workshop on Max For Live and Controllers.

    Check it out at inoutfest.org

  • bjm

    MAX – CSOUND are return in the old age… WE WANT immediatly sound and synthesys! granular convolution etc…isn't for musician is ok for ARCHITECT etc…ciao

  • Woieyr

    "Are there ANY workarounds to this? Is anyone out there using hardware synths via SYSEX and LIVE?"

    I have in the past had to rewire in Plogue Bidule to get some Sysex into my Ableton. Now I use an MPC1000 with Ableton Live a good combo for covering the whole midi spectrum.

  • http://max4live.info Michael Chenetz

    @Woieyr

    There are a few workarounds… If you own Max and M4L, you could send a string over OSC to a Seperate Max patch that can then receive the OSC message and send it out Sysex to your device.

    The other options is to use one of the available midi translater apps that are out there that you can define note or cc messages that it receives and then it will trigger a sysex.

    I am sure there are some other methods I haven't thought about yet.

  • http://sublamp.com Ryan

    I can't get M4L to launch, it crashes Live when it tries to start up :(

    So now I'm confused, Jitter video out works without a regular Max5 license as long as you aren't editing the patch, right? I hope so because this is the entire reason I got it…

  • theblackpeacock

    YO FILCH

    you can use OSC as a workaround. Make a sysex message maker in PD or whatever that just gets the messages from m4l

  • http://mrbook.org mrbook

    I just tried it and the noise coming out from the FM synthesizers tutorial absolutely convinced me to get this. I am a big fan of noise though :)

  • http://www.covops.org Bjorn Vayner

    @Woieyr and @Michael

    You don't need to own Max. You just need a patch to load in Max runtime which is free.

    For all the midi limitations in Live, you can work around them by sending MIDI over UDP for example.

    All you really need is a device in M4L to send/receive UPD (or other protocols) signals.

    And a patch in runtime to act as the MIDI Driver.

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  • http://www.myspace.com/casimirsblake Casimir's Blake

    M4L is a producers tool, not a composers tool. Thanks for the guide, but this just gave me more and more reasons why I will never finish a song with this product. I may finish "plugins" but I'll be spending all my time making those and not writing or arranging.

    Point? Um, perhaps to tell Ableton and Cycling that this isn't a product I'm interested in.

  • amounra

    Not all of the python control surface scripts appear to be accessible through the api at this time. Looking forward to seeing them opened up.

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  • http://filchmedia.squarespace.com Filch

    @theblackpeacock

    I've actually already purchased Max for Live, and then found out I'd be limited still by Sysex. No Matter, I think what comes in the package is worth it itself.

    Are there some readily available documents or tutorials that could explain how I can program OSC/sysex in MAX or PD to use in Live? I want to be able to record/edit synth parameters of my Evolver and MKS-50.

  • griotspeak

    * Button matrix step sequencer: a step sequencer for grid controllers like the monome, APC40, and Launchpad

    is this point about the CS step sequencer? the CS step sequencer does not work with the monome from what i can tell

  • http://nanofunk.net nanofunk

    very nice article! especially if you own max/msp, the update is really cheap and extends your possiblities with ableton live a lot!

    see also the review on nanofunk.net: Max/Msp for Live with Ableton Live 8.1 Final REVIEW (max for live)

  • LP

    Great stuff, but I really can see how this IS a composer's toolbox! The included effects are awesome, and I'm hoping with a bit of focused work I can make them do some things to surprises me into the finishing touches of some pieces! As well, being able to share devices that others have made is really open-ended…GREAT!

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  • Bynar

    I am a Max 5 owner and have no plans to get Max 4 Live. I used to use Live around version 3 and 4 but migrated to Max/Msp for live performance instead. However, I was surprised after I downloaded Max 5.1 to find all the M4L objects included for free with the update. Max owners get the new Live Step Sequencer a new Matrix for chucker~(kind of a lazy man's buffer shuffler) and a whole host of M4L user interface objects. So even without M4L there are some benefits. I would add this onto your article Peter!

  • http://vimeo.com/user1408597 akeem

    "You can do almost anything with the Live Object Model and the Live API, but here’s one notable catch: …"

    There's another big catch, you can't programatically load a mid/audio clip into a slot. Therefore you can't create a complete remote control for live == no way to create a fully featured "multitouch controlpanel". For the most basic tasks like adding or deleting a clip, you still have to use live's native UI

  • http://mrbiggs.com Brian

    I keep wringing my hands over M4L. For instance I've been hoping for a step sequencer for Live, and it irks me that the Max4Live promo material is telling me that now I have one. Well, no, I don't, since I'm not really planning to get Max4Live. I like making songs and music, not necessarily building instruments.

    So now I worry that development of Live is going to slow down significantly. That is, will Ableton ever get around to clip LFOs and a step sequencer now that these things are covered in this "other" Live product?

    It would be nice if there were a lower-priced version for those of us who'd like to USE these tools, but aren't really interested in building them.

  • S Ford

    I reckon at sometime soon, there will be a user library a la Reaktor. That'll be a great thing as many will be happy to create machines for making music a la Martin Brinkmann but are not a employee of the company, and hopefully like the Reaktor user library there are pretty much endless options for what you want.

    That'll hopefully happen for M4L.

    I use Max/Msp to make around 90% of the music I make, but I have never designed anything for myself. I just download other people's patches. Max Runtime is a great thing. It would have been fantastic if there was such a thing for Ableton, but I think that would probably take away most consumers from their main product….

  • wa

    …any of the control surfaces you see defined in the Live Control Surfaces dialog should be able to be addressed right from Max for Live patches…

    From my experience this is true only if you own/connect the specific device you want to address.

    I have an APC40 and I'd like to access some functions used in the Mackie Control Script (for instance arrows… or a proper mapping of clip scrubbing), but all I can have access to is just the APC40 script.

    This reminds of another problem, somehow related to the impossibility of adding Audio and MIDI clips… there's no way of controlling a bunch of other functions accessible by menus and/or keyboard shortcuts. There's an old Max Object that can maybe recreate keystrokes on Mac, but this is definitely something Ableton could have added without too much effort.

    In other words…

    Max for Live, being fundamentally Max… is really profound and amazing. The group of Patches/Devices that come with it are without doubt worth the price… and the fact that in the next months those will be just the few starters… and the fact that opens so much sound design capabilities/controls… and… and…

    BUT!!!

    if you expect it to be the solution to your must_use_mouse/must_use_other_software controllers problems, you'd better spend your money on other stuff.

    …there is nothing wrong in using patches made by others, maybe just tweaking them here or there if you like…

    As Henke said in his interview on cycling website, there should be some time during the year when you cannot edit the patches but can use only the runtime.

    …when we used to buy hardware instruments, we enjoyed time learning how to use them and create music at the same time, and a lot of times we just wanted a few different things here or there to bend them to our will. we can see Max for Live (and PD, Reactor, etc, etc…) just as malleable instruments… every patch is a midi/music/video machine that you can simply modify…

    probably we will see a Max for Live runtime in the future, but I think that it's good for now that there's no runtime. this means two things:

    - everyone that buy M4L could try to tweak even tiny little aspects of other's patches, and this is the way people begin to learn things

    - everyone that buy M4L and wants to show his/her work has to share it

    this is the way to go…

    IMHO runtime could come later

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    I'm very curious about the issue people were having with control surfaces… is anyone able to clarify what the issue is with some working, some not? I was not under the impression that this was APC/Launchpad specific or anything like that.

    Generally, my hope is that Max for Live does NOT become a solution for addressing controllers; that's functionality that belongs directly in the host. But, as others have said, Max is a deep and powerful development environment, so there are advantages to having controller hooks there, too – just not as a replacement for anything else.

  • http://www.max4live.info Michael Chenetz

    I believe the only devices that support the full integration at this time are the made for Ableton devices. Currently those devices are the Launchpad and the APC40. I have not tried any other devices, and i am just going off the reports that have been sent to me.

    Mike

  • Jesse

    I just bought Max4Live but now I have to install Max and only have a 30 day trial. How does this work? Can I authorize max with my ableton key?

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    The Max install is part of the Max for Live install. In other words, don't worry about it. ;) You only need to authorize Max if you want to run it directly, outside of Live; otherwise, it just lives behind the scenes for you.

  • Jesse

    Nice! Thanks for your quick answer. I'm off geeking out.

  • griotspeak

    @ Peter

    Control Surfaces only supports 'official' devices currently.

    as such, it is VERY much APC launchpad specific at the moment.

    personally, the first thing i want m4l is addressing controllers. which is why i am wont stop complaining about the current situation. i would write the daggum python scripts if we could just get some support.

  • griotspeak

    o man. proofreading is a good thing.

    "

    personally, the first thing i want m4l is addressing controllers. which is why i wont stop complaining about the current situation."

  • http://www.covops.org Bjorn Vayner

    @griotspeak,

    What exactly do you wish to access? Its not like there's some wizardry going on. Apart from Mackie support and LP/APC40 support, every other script is a generic script for the hordes of 8-knobbed keyboards and the full use of a generic script for devices like the BCR2000.

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    @Bjorn / @griotspeak:

    Actually, looking at the control surface classes in the Live Object Model, with the exception of the Red Rectangle of Highlighted Clips I would want all of these things in all control surfaces – like the couple of scripts for the Korg NANO Series, for instance. ;)

    I suppose you could override the control surface mode and simply send MIDI manually, which for some Max patches would be more desirable. I haven't yet seen a patch that makes use of these; I gather that step sequencer is one? (Have to go try it…)

  • http://www.covops.org Bjorn Vayner

    I got a patch that automatically connects to a launchpad, but I suppose the same principle works with any other controller. You connect to 1 of the 6 Remote Control Surfaces (connect with live.path) and extend whichever controller is in use.

    All the functions of any control script work regardless of the controller connected. Even if no controller is connected, you can still control that script.

    That being said, I haven't done anything yet beyond that CS sequencer, but if you use the API explorer you'll see all these script features exposed.

  • griotspeak

    the red rectangle is the main point of contention. i really need to take another look at the CS step sequencer. i printed the patches out and tried to tease the CS specific stuff out and couldn't get it. but i did move on fairly quickly, so i should look again.

  • griotspeak

    looking at the CS step sequencer patch, it states explicitly that it only works with the Launchpad or APC.

    It may work with a monome, but it looks like a significant amount of effort will be needed to get there.

    @bjorn – i was talking about writing a script to make the monome a supported control surface button matrix

  • griotspeak

    @bjorn

    "That being said, I haven’t done anything yet beyond that CS sequencer, but if you use the API explorer you’ll see all these script features exposed."

    This may have a whole lot to do with you actually having a launchpad. My goggles do nothing.

  • http://www.max4live.info Michael Chenetz

    In terms of the red box… I believe that is only accessible from the api when using a device that is using the python scripts like the Launchpad and APC40. I figured out a workaround though…

    You can modify the color of the clips in a slot, so you can create some objects in M4L that will allow you to change the color of a certain amount of clips in a grid. For example, if you want a 8×8 clip grid, you would change the colors in that clip grad as you move around the tracks and scenes. I was thinking about dividing the color by .25 or .5 for any highlighted region that i currently want to perform actions on.

    This method has the same effect as the box, but instead changes the colors of the clips as you traverse the set.

    Hopefully this makes sense.

  • griotspeak

    that is an interesting workaround. how do you get the screen to follow? for instance, if i navigate down 16 scenes, i can't really see that without manually paging down separate from my control surface.

    i hadnt really considered changing the clip color…i was pretty focused on actually moving the screen… i suppose i could just try smaller sets…heh.

  • http://www.max4live.info Michael Chenetz

    Lets say i want to get a 8×8 grid… i use 2 uzi objects to create the coordinates of 0-7 for scene and 0-7 of track. I then inject a offset value to modify the scene value and/or the track value. That tracks and scene goes into a path for the Live API like…

    path live_set tracks $1 clip_slot $2 clip

    We then connect that path to a live object with get color. Then we divide the color by some value in order to change it to something relative to what it is now.

    You can then perform actions on those clips by connecting the clips to a jit.cell and outputting the jit.cell coordinates into another Live path and then performing actions on it.

    Now here is what you have to consider… When you move around the screen by changing the offset, then you need to multiply the value of the color to the difference of the offset that you have changed to.

    I am currently working on the pieces for it. I have a OHM64 clip launcher that i created using the jit.cell and this method, nut i am currently creating the color patch as we speak.

    Mike

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    @Michael:

    Ha – that's awesome. Having the clip color change should also be a lot easier to see — not least because the clips will more effectively scale with the new Live 8 UI scaling.

    This question has gone from whether you can use control surface settings with anything else to whether you'd even want to. My sense is, you probably don't want to bother. The stuff that really matters is the live_set portion of the LOM, at least as near as I can figure.

  • http://www.max4live.info Michael Chenetz

    @Peter

    The LOM is the important part. Right now I am mapping the Ohm64 through MIDI and then converting to x/y coordinates which can map to objects in the LOM. I do the same thing with Lemur through OSC. The Live functions are accessible no matter what method you chose The only advantage of the control_surface object is that a button matrix is addressable by using the term, "button matrix". Who what a thunk it. :-) and any other feature of a control surface uses logical names to access them. Then the mappings can be done through the LOM and you do not have to think in terms of midi/OSC/ etc… because the control_surface object in the LOM takes care of the underlying communications. At least this is what I have gathered about the control_surface object. Still playing with it.

  • gio

    I had a look to a couple of patches posted on m4l beta forum and in my experience I could see the Control_Surface's children Components and Controls only if the specified Script/Controller where selected/loaded in Preferences.

    I'd love to be wrong about this, but it seems to me that in his actual form you can only query, observe, modify specific objects in the LOM.

    You cannot create or delete Tracks, Devices, Scenes, Control Surfaces and their subcomponents. So, you can't actually modify the LOM tree itself, only the objects already living inside it when a Song/Root is loaded.

    @Peter

    I'm totally with you when you say "my hope is that Max for Live does NOT become a solution for addressing controllers; that’s functionality that belongs directly in the host"

    It's also true that:

    - a lot of the alternative ways of controlling Live had been patched in Max.

    - there is an infinite number of complaints and/or customizing ideas around Remote Scripts and Ableton is never going to address them all. not only it's impossible but i don't think they'll never make the effort, especially with M4L around.

    (M4L is the effort)
    :-)

    @Michael

    it's a bit strong to say that 'The only advantage of a control_surface object is that a button matrix is addressable by using the term, “button matrix”'. Reading just the names of methods and properties, the Control Surface object, Components and Controls seem to have something more than "only an addressable name". It seems that they could surely help to manage control surfaces inside patches/scripts.

    Now, If only the people from Ableton and Cycling would release any kind of documentation about this stuff.

  • griotspeak

    yea, to make it clear, i can't help but feel like creating the script to make a monome a control surface would be simpler than repurposing the CS step sequencer script.

    on a positive note, i found the useful parts of the CS patch. makes some sense.

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    @gio: No, I agree, as well. Max has long been a useful way of processing messages, so as such, it's a nice environment for programming controllers. On the other hand, the smarter Live gets, the more useful Max's facilities will be talking to Live.

  • http://www.max4live.info Michael Chenetz

    @gio,

    I really did not mean it to come out that way. What i really wanted to illustrate is that it is just an easier way to manage the interaction with controllers. Not using control_surface object doesn't really take away much functionality.

  • Tim

    It looks good but one of the big advantages of using just Max and Ableton with MIDI between them is that they both have runtime version. Therefore, if you make a sound installation or the likes you can do the creating on your computer and then set it up on it's own little one without having to buy a bunch of new licenses.

    Obviously, Ableton and Cycling74 feel that one of the big things about Max4Live is using predefined patches so there won't be a runtime. Maybe, they could open up Max4Live on the demo version of Ableton.

  • griotspeak

    i'm ok eating crow in this case
    http://www.buttonsandlights.com/m4l/clipnome/clip

    cause it means i have a sequencer.

  • http://www.neotericresearchunit.com/ bernie

    Has anyone tried using M4L patches in re-wire mode (with Live as slave) – on the ableton website it says that max doesn't work in re-wire mode but I am wondering if that means that the Max access doesn't work (which is fine) or if that also means that any of the max patches will work…

    otherwise this does look very good.

  • Andy

    Is M4L really a producers tool? May not be so entirely. But yes to use it to its optimum one will require the mindset of a producer or creator. If all you are looking at is improving your musical abilities- better harmonies, improvising, better mixing, better compositions e.t.c then yes it may not be relevant or useful. $299 can be better invested in other areas.

  • Cloud

    @Peter

    huge thanks for every single word writed on Cdm..

    Now,

    i ve got LIVE 8.1 and Max/Msp 5.1 wich run in a full 30 days version (that i use with the Universal Demo Remover).

    i ve tried to install the Max for live.als Pack wich i ve downloaded yesterday from Cycling 74, but Live does recognize it only in products area.

    and when i try to open any instruments or effects Live shows only empty folder with title?

    Can i use Max for live with MAX/MSP 5.1 demo??? (with Universal Demo Remover)

    Cheers

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  • http://www.electricovenlab.com Kimberly Bell

    the best video player that i use is none other than VLC Player, it is free and i think it is open source too";"