Killing bugs dead, as pictured in a sign in Ikaho, Japan. Photo: Rick Hall.

New features are great, and yes, it’s often us users asking for them. But reliability and stability are more important to most of us. It’s therefore a welcome surprise to see Ableton’s CEO post the following message on Ableton’s forum today, announcing that the company will put new features on hold until some reliability issues are fixed. For developers other than Ableton, it should be telling to see how users respond — if this kind of frankness inspires confidence rather than concern, it could mean that talking more openly about bugs and how to fix them could open up more dialog between developers and users:

Update, 12/29: One release with some fixes is already available, in the form of 8.1.1. It appears to address a showstopper bug I personally encountered with Drum Rack performance under certain situations. I’m testing that fix and others. I don’t believe this is the only update to 8.x that Ableton is planning, or the one to which this message refers, but it is a start. Check out the downloads page.

Some of you have experienced and reported problems with Live 8 several months ago that we have still failed to fix. This is both painful and necessary for us to discuss. We owe you sincere apologies, as well as an explanation and outlook for the future.

Ableton values quality over innovation. Our engineers will stop whatever they are doing to fix a bug when they become aware of it. They must, however, rely on a process that prepares the incoming information and funnels it to them appropriately. Establishing and maintaining this process is the responsibility of management — particularly us, Bernd and Gerhard — and this is where things have gone wrong while we let our attention divert to ambitious new projects.

Our apologies also extend to both the Ableton developers and tech support colleagues because they want to be proud of software and service that users love.

We have now decided to:

  • suspend all development towards new features while the whole team joins forces to address the current issues. This effort is open ended and will result in a free Live 8 update;
  • make process changes to prevent similar situations from happening in the future.

We hope this plan finds your understanding and agreement. We’d like to wish you a very happy holiday season and a wonderful 2010!

Gerhard Behles, CEO
Bernd Roggendorf, CTO

Pausing forward development to focus on bug fixes in and of itself is not an unprecedented move – it’s just usually not something you talk about. So I have to applaud not only Ableton making the sacrifice to focus on reliability first, but also that they’re being frank about acknowledging issues. I’m honestly not entirely certain just which issues they’re describing, because I don’t have the benefit of the big picture that comes from handling Ableton’s own tech support. Once Ableton does make progress on this upcoming free update, though, I’ll be sure to share what changes are included.

As seen on the Ableton forums, via Bjorn Vayner / The Covert Operators on Twitter.

Clarification: I should hasten to add, as I realized this post could be misread — talking about and fixing bugs is a good thing, but having bugs is not. Ableton, as any music developer, depends on the goodwill and trust of its users. If in fact bugs have made current Live versions less stable, or have adversely impacted the perception of Live, that leaves the ball in Ableton’s court to resolve. To me, the proof is in the release. If you have issues you’ve fully documented that have not be resolved, to which this post may be referring, we’d love to hear about them (emphasis on “documented” and “fully” — let us know exactly the issue and how to reproduce it). Likewise, we’ll watch for fixes. All software has bugs, and being a computer musician means being able to manage reliability and stability to make the computer an effective instrument.

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Good night, Happy Fool's Day!

A very elderly couple is having an elegant dinner to celebrate their 75th wedding anniversary. The old man leans forward and says softly to his wife, "Dear, there is something that I must ask you. It has always bothered me that our tenth child never quite looked like the rest of our children. Now I want to assure you that these 75 years have been the most wonderful experience I could have ever hoped for, and your answer cannot take all that away.

But I must know, did he have a different father?"

The wife drops her head, unable to look her husband in the eye, she paused for moment and then confessed: "Yes. Yes he did."

The old man is very shaken, the reality of what his wife was admitting hit him harder than he had expected. With a tear in his eye he asks, "Who?... Who was he? Who was the father?"

Again, the old woman drops her head, saying nothing at first as she tried to muster the courage to tell the truth to her husband. Then, finally, she says, "You".

Happy April Fool's Day!

@Dennis DeSantis Whoa, are you saying that my lowly post on your forum spurned the action of your CEO that in essence, made this lovely thread possible? I'm honored.

But seriously, thanks buddy. I suppose that all of this bickering, handwringing and straight up nasty attacks (what up fools?) shows that you have a healthy user base. For good or for ill, that's awesome.

Now, back to crushing beats.

I think it's a vast oversimplification to say "no plug-in support" means "more stable." If Reason and Record are stable for you, great, but their lack of plug-in support isn't necessarily the reason.

For the record, check the changelog in Live 8.1.1 - or, for that matter, any changelog in any DAW. You can have plenty of stability issues and crashes without ever touching a plug-in. Some of these were simply mistakes in development. Those things happen; it's a matter of whether you can find and correct all of them before shipping.

It's possible to have a stable app that supports plugs, just as it's possible to have an unstable app that doesn't. Eliminating plug-ins does eliminate variables, and more importantly it changes other things you may develop in terms of things like control and timing. But assuming it's the dependent variable would be a mistake, and I'm sorry if I implied that.

Reason is probably the closest thing to hardware stability I've seen in software. As pointed out, it is because it is very closed. No external plug-ins. I use Reason like I would a hardware synth within Live.

The way I interpreted this statement by Ableton was "Our eyes got bigger than our heads. In our top down focus on adding functionality, we lost sight of many of the things people came to count on with Live (mainly stability). We are going to redirect our focus to rebuild lost trust with our customer base." This may be naive thinking, but it follows from my interactions with Ableton Support since version 6, which has been largely positive. Of course, I do not stress Live as much as others.

Personally I have not encountered many problems, but I largely stick to Ableton devices and instruments. I bought Suite primarily because I figured that Ableton's instruments and effects would be more stable than external ones. From my own experience, this has largely proved to hold true. Between rewiring Reason into Live and Live's built-in instruments, I have more than enough to compose material. I'm willing to accept a restriction in pallette for a more stable environment (as well as knowing that I will likely be able to open any project I create years into the future).

This of course doesn't excuse Ableton rushing the Live 8 release (which they most certainly did), or constantly piling on new partnerships and features while leaving things like the Share functionality to rot in a still closed beta almost a year after Live 8's release. I sincerely hope that the spirit of this statement is followed through upon. Seeing things like the occasional Live 7 update still be pushed through gives me hope that this will be the case.

edison

at least have the courtesy to form a legible sentence when you're being a pompous ass.

I be cookin beats all day and night bro. with live7 - yo.

@ wheel:

For you interest: as of today 1/1/2010 Propellerhead software has announced a new permanent price structure for its core products. The Record + Reason Duo bundle now costs just EURO 409. So the permanent full price of Record/Reason is now cheaper than the Ableton 10th Anniversary Sale price of Live 8 Suite.

I don't personally think that is jugely important, but as you seem very interested in proving a point about pricing, I though you would want to know for the sake of future fairness and accuracy that Record/Reason is now less expensive.

...

@edison you are right but this is not only complaining and it is not real quick.

It has took more time than this post.

How to do it positive with support channels fail?

Loud? Gentle?

Nothing works. Better CDM with alternatives...

...

dooood....

i gotta holler....

all this time could be spent being productive...

this got kinda negative....

real quick...

@beats me....

go make some tracks.... with whatever....

you aint right... just the loudest....

insane amount of energy spent on complaining..

everyone should CDM..... literally

wheel, stop pretending that it's not expensive. i don't have an agenda, i love ableton, but to see somebody clearly lying and then pretending that it's a perfectly legitimate way to do math is just sad.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOLIVE

there's a copy of live 8 suite for $800. sure you can get if for less if you wait for the exact right moment. if you can't understand that some people *do* pay full price for software, then i can't help you. it's a pretty basic and obvious reality for anybody who pays attention to the world around them.

...

Ableton has announced new cool features like maxforlive and force pluggo users to choose new ways.

Ableton has ripped off (in my opinion as costumer of course) some "cool" open source techs and "closed" them into Live and only you could develop trought maxforlive.

Ableton has becoming a leader and selfblowed itself.

Ableton has left stability at overpricing for new costumers and left support overpricing for old costumers...

Community users were sending mails from last 7 years and support (as I understand because marketing lines go in this way...) missheared.

Then bugs come and situation about non-mfl runtime, closed communication for alternative devices (instead launchpads and Apc40) make the grasp for this flame posts.

and I say overpriced because I could do similar things with different softwares, sometimes fitting better my needs and as a costumer/supporter/fanboy Ableton is totally crap in user support area.

IE: www.flyloops.com
Live Looping Beatbox full midi/osc mappeable and CLIP SCRATCHING for 120 €.

Crash? Yes but they hear users.

I don't want to polemize but I can understand beatsme...

just my2cents

...

@ beats me: ok this is getting nowhere, so its my last post here unless something more interesting comes up.

"other people are pissed off": yes i know. i'm pissed off about certain things too. but FOR ME what i'm extremely enthusiastic about outweighs what i'm unhappy about, so I will continue to give Ableton money unless that changes. I have never suggested that no-one is pissed off, nor that they didn't have a right to be. Damn, even the Ableton management have c ome right out and said that. No-one is arguing about that ... except for you apparently?

I'm not completely "content" - certainly not with the current stability of the program, but I'm certainly happy that (unlike most every other comparable company) Ableton have openly addressed this (in words) and are (hopefully) trying to address it in deeds. So, once again people are not "wrong" to be "pissed off" - i never suggested they were- so some people, including yourself on numerous occasions have said many things which were either factually wrong, or were in my oh so humble opinion disingenious, dishonest or just a little bit sillu. Being pissed off about instability is something totally disserent.

"so why argue or act the pedant or blither on about moot price differences."

if you look at the thread you'll see that the people who brought up "moot price differences" were those, including your good self, trying to use the price of Live to, ahem, beat on Ableton. I was simply quoting current real world prices to help give some perspective.

But anyway, look, i think we both know what the other person thinks on this right ?, and i'm not sure that there's anyone else out there listening anymore, so lets just agree to disagree, shall we ?

I really hope the current generation of the program rapidly becomes more stable for you, for me and for everyone else. Afterwards you, me and everyone else will decide whether we want to buy the next paying update, and life will go on ...

happy new year

btw, I wasn't insulting your username ?

it's just a pleasant irony that it reflects your contributions to this discussion.

round, and round, and round....

....

good for you.

other people are pissed off.

they're not wrong just because you're content.

so why argue or act the pedant or blither on about moot price differences.

@beats off : c'mon lets not start insulting each others user names here ... its just a friendly discussion

"what matters is what Ableton are WILLING to take off each customer and what they GIVE in return."

yes. you are right. and for my purposes, up till now, I consider that what they have "given" me - as you put it - has been well worth what it has cost me. Hence I stay on the train. If it isn't for you, don't give them any more money until it seems worth it for you.

Really ... I'm not trying to be smart here, I just don't see what part of this you are finding so hard to grasp ...

and paying for a beta is expensive, whatever way you dice it.

@wheel

that username really suits you. because you just go round, and round, and round....

it matters not about the thrifty options available to consumers, like waiting every three versions or taking advantage of some xmas/anniversary offer.

what matters is what Ableton are WILLING to take off each customer and what they GIVE in return.

@ aje : I agree with you. Keeping "up to date" with a lot of this stuff does, over the years add up to quite a bit of money.

Indeed if you add up the cost of most anything in life over the years the figures can be alarming !!!

If you buy every upgrade to LIve, then you will pay more than if you buy every upgrade to Reason (of which there are not many) but less than some other choices / components of a DAW.

But you don't absolutely HAVE to buy every upgrade, do you ? You probably DO need to upgrade about every three years (so for LIVE about every three versions) to be on a version that is compatible with current hardware and other elements, but any more than that is a CHOICE, and buying extra Instruments , Content etc is a CHOICE.

What I find disingenious, bordering on dishonest, is when some people, who have perfectly valid gripes with the current version of Live concerning stability etc seem to try to 'amplify' their gripes by exaggerating the price of Live, claiming that the cost of entry is a $1000 and that the cost of use is "hundreds of dollars per year".

This just isn't (necessarily) true.

I have bought every single update of LIve from 1.0 to now because I decided each time that it was worth it FOR ME ... I made that CHOICE, Just like I made the choice NOT to update several programs and plug-in packages because it wasn't ...

I think that choice, even choice that comes with a cost is GOOD and bashing Ableton because they give you more (paid) update choices, more often than certain other programs is absurd.

Bash them for instabilty issues, releasing stuff too early etc if it pleases you, but exaggerating the relevant prices and costs to somehow support your grievances is lame.

Once again, the expense of Live is not the initial outlay (which, allowing for speical offers etc, is not disimilar to Logic, Cubase, or Reason)... it's the frequency and cost of the upgrades. For loyal long-time users like myself upgrading each year (until now) the $120+ quickly mount up. My business accounts plainly show that I have paid more than £1000 over the last few years, and I don't even have a bunch of the stuff. It is what it is: quite an outlay.

@ salamanderanagram : "wheel, the actual price that many people pay for live is closer to $1000. right now that’s not the case, great. it doesn’t discount the fact that many people do pay that much for it."

i'm begining to think you have a hidden agenda here.

i just went back to the Ableton site and the price for the downloadable programs are still Live 8 299 € / Live 8 Suite 449 €

even if you were (for whatever perverse reason) to deliberately wait for a moment when there wasn't some sort of deal going in order to pay more than this, and take the worst case scenario in $/€ exchange rates it _still_ isn't anywhere close to $ 1000.

Can you pay more ? Sure you can buy a box, a manual and an ableton t-shirt too if you want, but we were talking about the basic price.

I have maybe 10 friends & colleagues who bought Live, none of them payed $1000 for it. Not one. About the same number have Reaktor, none of them payed $ 400 for it. Not one. All bought as part of some package / so-called special deal ... but you say that "Reaktor is actually a $400 program, even if i got it for less."

I'm sorry, but his is just silly.

i meant live suite, sorry

wheel, the actual price that many people pay for live is closer to $1000. right now that's not the case, great. it doesn't discount the fact that many people do pay that much for it.

keep going ahead and trying to fudge numbers, though, it's not like i care or anybody else is listening.

@jmob: regarding the issue with the Max update being incompatible with all but the latest Live betas, that was an unfortunate mistake.

On Ableton's behalf, I apologize for that. Neither Ableton nor Cycling would ever suggest that our users pay to beta test our software.

The fact that you experienced bugs AND had the feeling that they weren't being addressed is essentially the reason that Gerhard made the announcement regarding our new bugfixing plan.

@ salamanderanagramsa : "the equation you’re trying to make would look a lot different if you used the real price."

it IS the real price today, it will POSSIBLY become 50 € (basic) or 100 € (suite) if they don't make another special offer or bundle or whatever ... but whatever, even at 50 €/ 100 € more its STILL cheaper than Reason however you do the math

@ salamanderanagramsa :" i just bought reaktor for $99. to say that reaktor is 1/3 the price of max for live would be disingenuous, because reaktor is actually a $400 program, even if i got it for less."

I disagree. What proportion of Reakter users actually paid $400 for it ? I would guess very few. It's realworld streetprice that counts.

NI always have some "special" "offer" on so if you don't get Reaktor as part of Kompletely Krackers Kristmas Krap i'm sure you'll get another chance at a "super reduced never to be repeated special offer price" just as soon as that offer ends ...

Being in the UK I was particularly thinking of the glowing reviews in our local mags, CM, MTM and FM... I didn't know you wrote one, and don't read Keyboard.

In terms of checking forums, the Ableton beta forum is a good place to check, and I'm guessing you were a beta tester? Certainly from my experience beta testing Live 8 I was just shocked that they went ahead and released it in the state it was then in. From Ableton's recent comments it sounds like they now realise - even nine months or so later - that it's substandard in their own view. I wish they would reform their testing process, and perhaps take note of those whose testing lasts several months (but, erm, works). That would be a very good step.

Having been involved in that test, and shocked that the release went ahead, I just decided to "wait and see". I'm still waiting, still watching... still not buying though ;)

@beats me "they should sell a stable version whilst prolonging the beta period of it’s replacement – so that when they start charging people for it, it is up to scratch and does what it is supposed to do.

That’s not hard to grasp is it ?"

what makes you think i don't grasp it ? or even agree with it for that matter?

(since I have never commented on that particular point.)

any thoughts on what I did say ?

Well, the trick among reviewers has long been to rely upon users. Smart reviewers (cough, *hopefully* usually including me) dig through forums looking for likely issues. But it's easier to do that later in an app's lifecycle than earlier, so that's why I think blogs *could* provide a useful additional filter -- though we really do rely on feedback from y'all. It's crowdsourced reviewing, basically.

@peter, while it would be nice if reviewers were able to make us aware of these issues, it would be foolish (IMO) in this day and age to just rush out and buy ableton because ANY one reviewer gave it good reviews. in the case of ableton there's a lengthy trial period, and a HUGE online community that can be checked into.

personally, i'm just expecting that reviewers for the most part spend a few hours with a program and give us a general impression. if it takes us more than the 2 week trial to find them, how are you going to do it?

maybe you could develop some sort of DAW stress test? lol

frankly live 8 seemed like an underwhelming update to me, and i read this page religously so i wouldn't worry too much about it ;)

Well, right, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you pay $500 and you feel your investment pays off, you're going to be happy. If not, you're going to be unhappy -- and indeed, more unhappy than something that's $75, or free. But I'm just mystified that we're getting stuck in these debates, like "How you can be happy, it's not working for me! ... Yeah? Well, it's working for ME, so there!"

Live doesn't qualify as cheap; it's a significant investment. And believe me, I take it to heart that reviewers who aren't experiencing the pain of investing in the thing aren't getting burned as badly. Of course, that's the case.

I can only assure you, though, that there's no worse feeling for ME than seeing people burned by bugs I didn't find in a review. I did list things in the "cons" column for the one Live 8 review I wrote, which was for Keyboard. I don't think it was a "whitewash" or free advertising; I had some definite criticisms. But I hadn't found these particular issues in that review.

"Cost is relative; I’m not sure why this is such a sticking point."

obviously if you spend money on something that doesn't work, you're going to be annoyed. but you're going to be more annoyed if it cost you $50 than $500, right? i've never had any problems with ableton and think it is quite powerful for the price, but if i had any other experience i would be pretty angry. it's a lot of money to put down on software, heck it cost me almost as much as my computer.

"they are just the current prices"

like i said, disingenuous. don't even try to pretend it's not. the equation you're trying to make would look a lot different if you used the real price.

i just bought reaktor for $99. to say that reaktor is 1/3 the price of max for live would be disingenuous, because reaktor is actually a $400 program, even if i got it for less.

it's definitely not cheap. it's expensive. all the more expensive when you're paying for a beta.

surely when determining if something is expensive, you have to look at what you get for your money.

Cost is relative; I'm not sure why this is such a sticking point. Live is quite expensive compared to, say, Renoise or Reaper, both under $100. It's quite cheap compared to buying a lot of instruments and effects a la carte, and *really* cheap compared to a studio of hardware.

But anyway, is that really the point? If Live is working well for you, if your investment paid off, you're really happy. If it's not, you're going to be unhappy. And you'd probably be unhappy if you spent $75, because software involves an investment of time as well as money. I'm not sure why this is even a point of debate.

@salamanderanagram : they are just the current prices. from the official websites, as of today when I checked ... these so-called "special deals" are part and parcel of music software pricing, NI in particular seem to always have at least one or more "specials" going on at any given moment. Should we add 50% to whatever they actually cost when comparing prices ?

If you've followed the thread you'll see that some people are convinced that Live is a particularly expensive program.

It isn't.

@wheel

I'm amazed at your ability to type so much and say so little.

As I and others have said, and as Gerhard has confirmed, what Ableton have been selling is not up to quality. keyword here: SELLING.

You said yourself you agreed with most of what I said several posts up, and what I said there is that they should sell a stable version whilst prolonging the beta period of it's replacement - so that when they start charging people for it, it is up to scratch and does what it is supposed to do.

That's not hard to grasp is it ?

regarding your further comments on pricing, all I can say is: "meh." You're flogging a dead horse there, and I'd like to echo what salamanderanagram said in that you're being disingenuous. second time round.

upgrading to ableton 8 and grabbing max for live would cost more than other single piece of software that i own (besides ableton itself), clocking in at nearly $500. oh, and that's on sale, too, i guess.

you can say it's worth it if you want (and you may be right) but stop pretending it's not expensive.

I can't really speak for any writers but myself, but I will say...

There are many, many things that can cause a writer to miss or overlook a reliability issue with software. It's possible to be challenged by an editor or the manufacturer when you question the quality of an app. There are times where I have wound up talking directly with programmers about an issue I found in a review, and it's stood up to technical review and gotten printed. (I can think specifically of a hardware issue with a Roland piece, and a very serious software bug with Apple video software - the latter which was ultimately fixed.)

It's also very, very possible to simply *miss* an issue. Part of the reason I'm glad to pour time into CDM is that we get to operate continuously. You write a review in print, and it's very often early in the development cycle (some magazines, though not any I have written for, even review products before their final release). Then it's out there, forever, and you can't change it. Murphy's Law says the moment your copy for a review is turned in, the software will crash on you, then and only then. (And yeah, I've had that happen, where I wanted to scream because I'd missed something during the review phase and found it after a story was done.)

I'm not making excuses, by any means. I'm just describing what happens in my experience. I can't speak for all writers; I'm sure there are some "hacks" out there, and I hope people have not often counted me in that category. But there are some writers I very much respect who I know do sometimes miss things; that's inevitable.

As for being willing to say anything just to get your cozy NFR, um... at the risk of stating the obvious, I don't want software I hate, for free or otherwise. I know your money is valuable, and I try to take that into account. Review policy sometimes even argues against talking about price; I think it's a reasonable point. But even without talking price, my time is valuable, too, and in very short supply. I don't need to waste my time on software bugs any more than anyone else, whether I got it free or not. If there's a reviewer out there who disagrees, I've yet to meet him or her!

@wheel, way to use the ableton 10 year special sale price and pretend it's the normal price. that's pretty disingenuous, really.

@aje : and plus your math is screwy ;-)

@aje : here's an idea for you - if you don't want Live to cost you more than Reason, then don't buy every damn update and every damn add-on. Use this secret method and it will be cheaper than Reason.

@ beats me : well we are starting to argue about the argument here, aren't we ? Never a good sign ...

But OK I can see where you are coming from re-analogies etc. But these multi-partner web discussions often go this way. It's not always clear which quote is being obliquely referred to, and the degree of tongue-in-cheapness of an analoy is not always apparent ...

Anyway maybe we should all forget about bikes without wheels, rowboats & starfleets and get back to the basics.

Here is what I am trying to say :

STABILITY

When discussing stability of a program I don't think that it is fair to compare Live 8 (with or without it's Max4Live component activated) with Reason.

Why ? Because Reason's whole specificity is that it it is a highly limited, completely closed system. No VSTs, no AU's, no APC's, no audio recording for god's sake ... and most certainly no MaxForReason.

I am not a programmer but I would guess that if you were building such a program, that from the 'word go' doesn't have to interface with the outside world at all (bar the OS and driver support) ... and what's more is developed and added to exceptionally slowly when compared to most other DAWs (not just Live) ... then it might be slightly easier to assure near rock solid stability than if you are doing anything resembling what Ableton have been doing over the past year or so.

Note that i'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the Reason approach ... ( personally I bought it, used it for a year or so and haven't opened it since, but I know some great musicians making great music partly or wholly with it, so ... respect) ... i'm saying that if you want a Reason approach ... go with Reason ... it is what it is and apparently it is very stable - i don't actually remember it being so rock solid back then but i'll take your word for it ...

However if you actually realise what Ableton are doing here (in general compared to Reason & IN PARTICULAR since taking on M4L etc etc) then it just isn't realistic to compare it to Reason. It just doesn't add anything pertinent to the discussion.

PRICE

I stand by what I said before:

From Props website today:

Reason 4 : 449 €

Record Reason Duo : 535 €

Refills : add 79-199 € each

From Ableton website today :

Live 8 : 299 €

Live 8 Suite : 449 €

If you want to add MaxForLive then it is however much extra it is (I think I payed 79€ but I alreday own Max)

If you want to add MaxForReason ... tough luck.

IMHO if we are talking about bang for the buck, Live is several orders of magnitude cheaper than Reason by any realistic asessment. And luckily for everyone, if you like different bangs for your buck, there are several alternatives ...

@ wheel: no, I think you missed it. If I bought Reason/Record plus ALL the extras (and now you mention it, I bought ReCycle too, but got ReBirth free - another great gift) - including all the Props refills, I would have spent around £660.

Ableton Live 8 Suite including ALL the extras would have cost me around £2000 over the same period, i.e. three times as much.

Ultimately its not about cost for me personally (although I do think Ableton are overpriced) - I just want equipment that works. So the fact that the full Propellerhead product range cost me a third of the cost of the full Ableton product range over seven years is not the most importnat thing. As messrs Behles et al have rightly said, stability is the most important thing. And Record/Reason is rock solid here, unlike Ableton Live.

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@aje : i read what you wrote twice, and what I think you are trying to argue is the following:

you bought Live and chose to buy some optional extras and then you added up the total price.

you bought Reason and chose NOT to buy any optional extras and the total price was less.

Is that it ?

And your point is ?

If I were to go buy Reason and Record and Recycle and Rebirth & a few hundred Refills, when they let me out of Rehab i'd have spent a whole f@ck load of cash ... certainly much more than if I had just bought Live Lite and hidden under a rock for a while.

@aje

""As I said, I am an occasional journalist myself. The few bits and bobs (music hardware, keyboards mainly) I have reviewed all had to be returned, so no perks there! In any case, I do NOT believe that jounalists are in any way corrupt as some (no you) suggest on forums elsewhere; merely somewhat negligent.

But it does undermine the review process and all our professionalism when journalists turn a blind eye to glaring faults, as must have happened here to at least some extent.""

I know hardware is on loan, I was more focused on software and it's NFR licenses all the way in that respect. I will have to respectfully disagree with you regarding the journalists negligence. it is a far cry more than 'somewhat'.. it's too frequent to be somewhat negligent (5,6,7 & 8), and I stand by my assertion that they intentionally omit bugs and stability problems from their reviews. Why ? ...can't say for sure but I reckon the free licenses *might* have something to do with it.

and pay a handsome sum for that 'privilege', I might add. See aje's post above for a run-down on upgrade costs.

anyways. why argue. You saw the statement Gerhard made, right ?

oh ya, and criticizing the Reason crew for selling refills aka content is pretty lame.

that is EXACTLY what ableton should do to generate revenue from existing customers, rather than sell them bug-ridden software on a yearly basis and have them pay for the privilege of ironing out the kinks for a year.

@ wheel: as a customer of both Propellerhead and Ableton I have to say you are wrong on this. Not because of the startup costs which you list - I'm sure they are quoted accurately. But because of the ongoing update costs that are levied each year. Here's an accurate ongoing breakdown for you:

Reason 2 cost me under £200 (street price). The upgrade to 2.5 (which was very significant and included a much needed overhaul of the effects among other workflow improvements) was... free. Then I pad around £65 to upgrade to Reason 3. We're talking a boxed product of course - which Ableton charge extra for. Same again to Reason 4. And Record cost me a thumping £86.

So the cost of running Reason and staying current at all times has cost me just over £400 over the preriod of 7 years.

With Ableton, the initial product - Live 2 - cost around £299 (which was quite a bit at that time). for the following five years I paid between £90 and £120 per year for the basic programme update, plus £150 for Operator, and subsequently another £200ish to upgrade to the Suite (download version). That adds up to more than £1000, double the cost of Propellerhead stuff over the exact same time period. That's without even owning the basic sample content of EIC, as I've not had a boxed product since Live 4. Nor do I have the Session Drums, the Orchestral sample sets, Max4Live, or a dedicated Ableton controller. If I bought all that the cost would zoom to more than £2000.

You mention the cost of Refills, and I agree that its worth factoring them in. The only Propellerhead one I own is ElectroMechanical, a fanastic EP collection. And guess what - Propellerhead gave that away free to all their customers too. If I did want to buy the commercial refills from Propellerhead, there is a boxed set of all four current ones (Drums, Bass, Pianos, Abbey Road) for £160 on Amazon. A huge collection of useful stuff for around the same cost as a single Ableton instrument, or "Session Drums" on its own.

Of course there's also loads of very good Free Refills to be found, just as there are good VST freebies to use with Ableton.

One last thought on this: unlike Propellerhead, whenever Ableton give away stuff for free (e.g. the current Christmas "gift") it always, but always requires you to have bought their latest update. Not so with Propellerhead - many of the refills available work just fine with older versions of Reason.

@wheel,

are you making things up as you go along ? you're accusing ME of telling fibs ? hehe...

your original post and analogy seemed to be about stability/function/dev resources. It didn't seem to be about price. you referred to functionality and situations involving maxforlive. You said Reason was a row-boat in terms of functionality and I replied in essence 'you get what you pay for' with Reason and it's sturdy. You said with maxforlive Ableton was trying to go to mars, so accept the problems. I replied that is a noble quest, but selling tickets for the prototype knowing full well it's not fully functional is bang out of order.

as for pricing, seeing as that's what you want your analogy to be about now, - there's 85euro in the difference between the full suite of Reason & Live. A fairly petty straw to clutch at. But sticking with your original point and analogy, you would have to include the price of MAX FOR LIVE. which you conveniently omitted from your above post.

max4live is an additional 300 euro.

You're clutching at straws by fixating on and ending my quote with 'charge you appropriately' , that is a small point to focus on in reply.

anyways, here's your quote again . Maybe you might want to warp it's meaning another time for the sake of debate ?

@ beat me : you make some good points, and though I don’t share your virulence, I have to agree with some of what you say … but where I would differ is the following :

You seem to be arguing that Live has always been particularly unstable because of the alledgedly bad business practices that you decry, and that the problems in 8.1 are just more of the same.

I really don’t think this is true at all.

They have been putting massive resources into Max4Live and to a lesser extent the control surface code. It must necessarily be a particularly complex time for them – definitely NOT business as usual – I don’t think that this is being taken sufficiently into account.

… and frankly to compare the potential stability issues facing Ableton as they morph Live into Live+Max4LIve with the stability issues facing Props as they add a synth or two to Reason every few years is a bit like saying “I got some new oars for my row boat without too much problem, how come NASA are having so much hassle getting to Mars ?”

Sure I can see valid reasons for preferring row boats to spacecraft for certain tasks, but lets be, ahem, reasonable …

As I said, I am an occasional journalist myself. The few bits and bobs (music hardware, keyboards mainly) I have reviewed all had to be returned, so no perks there! In any case, I do NOT believe that jounalists are in any way corrupt as some (no you) suggest on forums elsewhere; merely somewhat negligent.

But it does undermine the review process and all our professionalism when journalists turn a blind eye to glaring faults, as must have happened here to at least some extent.

@ beats me : " It’s more like Reason promises you a row boat, and gives you exactly that. Whereas Ableton promise you a trip to mars, charge you appropriately ... "

I'm sorry but this is just plain wrong. Either you honestly don't know the prices of the programs you are talking about or you are telling fibs to try to support your point of view ...

The Reason row boat is in fact WAY MORE EXPENSIVE than the Ableton starship ... whether this particular version of the starship needs a few bug fixes or not !

From Props website today:

Reason 4 : 449 €

Record Reason Duo : 535 €

Refills : add 79-199 € each

From Ableton website today :

Live 8 : 299 €

Live 8 Suite : 449 €

So for 299 € you can buy the Live 8 program (which of course does both MIDI & Audio recording) or you can buy almost 2/3rds of the basic Reason which doesn't do Audio recording.

or for 449 € you can get the Live suite with added instruments and content or the Basic Reason with no Audio Rec or added content

or for 85 € more than the full Live Suite you can get a Propellorheads Reason+Record Package that (using the two programs together) adds Audio recording

and then you still have to fork out 79-199 € PER REFILL on top of that for content

wow

that row boat sure is a bargain eh ?

come on, be serious ...

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