bridge

Live maker Ableton and DJ and virtual vinyl developer Serato today announced the results of their partnership. First off, this isn’t what many of us originally speculated: it’s not a DJ deck inside Live. Instead, the collaboration seeks to bridge (ahem) the gap between the way DJs perform and the way Live users perform. The result focuses on the way a performance set is assembled in the two paradigms, an attempt to guide the flow of music between the two programs. Here’s how it works.

Bring Serato “mixtapes” into Ableton Live: Save a DJ mix – called a “mix tape” – in a Serato product, and export it to Live, and what you get is all of your edits in a form that can be further manipulated in Live. Waveforms and automation data from your DJ session, however they’re manipulated and transcribed by the Serato software, appear in Live.

liveinserato

Put the Ableton Live Session View “inside” Serato: Here’s where things get in interesting. Rather than put Serato inside Live, we’re getting Live inside Serato – after a fashion. Ableton Live runs in the background. Integrated into the Serato interface (as seen at the screenshot at top) are all your Session View clips from your Live Set. Serato’s control – via audio input from vinyl or CDJs, or an ITCH control surface – manipulates the entire transport of the Live set.

Unknown: Turntablists are probably wondering, can they scratch Live? How much are those Live clips able to do? Do they behave as they do in Live? (As far as I know, yes – Live is, after all, running in the background and appears to have its normal capabilities.) I’ll work on these questions with Ableton and have an update by tomorrow.

ITCH: Yes, you can use controllers that support Serato’s ITCH, not just vinyl or CDJs, in order to control the transport of your imported Live set.

Pricing: Free. Own Serato Live/ITCH and Ableton Live (full version or Suite)? The Bridge costs you nothing. (Yes, this seems to be a departure from the arrangement from Max for Live.)

Availability: “No release date has been set yet.”

Naturally, all of this begs the question: do you really want to do this? And I expect that question is about to get turned over and inside out all over comments here on CDM and around the Web. It’ll naturally depend a lot on who you are.

Taking Serato sets into Live is clearly great for Serato users. It means you can get a head start on assembling an arrangement just by DJing, or alternatively, that you have the ability to use Live as a way of editing your Serato set. (Now, again, this appears to be a proprietary format – but that raises an interesting point. Ableton now uses an open XML format, meaning you could also presumably deconstruct this new Serato export and enable it to be used somewhere else, whether intended or not. But I digress.)

thebridgelogo

It’s the more ambitious reverse direction that’s both the most interesting and the most potentially controversial. After all, if you’re using Session View inside of Serato, why not just use Session View? Will it be more useful to put Live inside the virtual vinyl environment than the virtual vinyl inside Live? (If it turns out you favor the latter, you have other options – not least the recent evolution of Max for Live patches for Ms. Pinky. More on that in coming days.)

Side note: check out the VIDEO-SL integration. That makes this all even more interesting as an a/v, virtual vinyl environment; see our ongoing coverage of VIDEO-SL and other vinyl visualism for Create Digital Motion.

I’m not a turntablist, though, so I think the real question is what their take on this is. And kudos to Serato and Ableton for taking the gutsy route here as far as combining these products. We’ll get a closer look soon, and I’m curious to hear the reactions – however impassioned they may be. (On your mark … set … comment. Oh, boy.)

http://www.ableton.com/thebridge
http://www.serato.com/thebridge

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@DJSDive

xwax maybe? Maybe I'm confused...

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@Mudo: Mixxx currently has no support for OSC, though it should be fairly easy to add. It also doesnt have MIDI clock support atm either. Then again atm it doesnt really know about beats either, but there is already a branch (will hopefully make it into 1.9) that does .. and by then midi clock sync starts becoming interesting.

Just got home after a long weekend at NAMM.

I hung about some of the exhibitors at the Rane booth and they seemed pretty dedicated to sell me the idea, especially after I told them of my disappointment. The person I talked to was on a DVS/APC40 setup with a Macbook Pro (with only 2GB RAM and running pretty smoothly). It seemed to work well, but he still had to run both of the programs at the same time, and as I watched him , he was constantly switching between Live and Serato. It just seems like it's not as a big of a deal as they are making it to be.

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@Djsdive:

It could be possible because mixxx has OSC send out and with any open "bridge" wrote in Python... almost Serato Hardware has any "chip" dongle inside to unlock these features... in other way you could do it with maxforlive and any audio interface.

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the midi clock sync between traktor and ableton is flaky. it works fine if you have a fixed bpm, but falls down flat if you have changes in bpm. wonder if the bridge works this out better.

other than that i wonder if there is any way to hack this integration to work in other DJ apps .. like mixxx.

anyways .. lets see how long it takes NI to beef up the Maschine integration to compete with this.

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The Bridge is for Serato partnership not akai.

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Maybe im missing the point but why the "bridge" if the APC 40 can't control ITCH. (That is if you you're like me and don't want to use vinyl). So you need to buy 2 controllers? One of ITCH and one for Ableton? Is it just me or am I the only one that wanted this the other way around so I can use ONE controller???

Looks to me like they're just making Serato a 'controller' for live. Nothing wrong with that, and as an owner of both I'll certainly give it a shot, though I suspect a new laptop is in order to leverage this for any real use.

For those in Austin having performance issues, assuming that things are properly cleaned/calibrated/cabled (with good cables) I suggest setting Processor Scheduling to "background" to insure the audio buffers are handled properly.

I've used Final Scratch 1/2, Traktor 3/Pro/Scratch, DjDecks & Serato and bar none Serato is what I trust at a gig, the only issues I've had are due to grounding problems in crap PA setups (turntable feedback due to 60hz/50hz 'noise') and calibrating properlay nd using relative mode solves any issues there too. Ableton is a close second btw.

Looks like a nice piece of kit for sure. Nice work guys.

@DaveDri

I think that's a serious understatement. I hope they do something to it because the UI in general looks pretty bad.

Version 2 will allow Live to use the soundcard from serato as its output.

YESSSSS!

The Serato GUI has a fair room for improvement, and could take some notes from Ableton over coming revisions.

As several people before me, I'm wondering about the capabilities in regard to software instruments running inside live. Is The Bridge going to allow me to record new midi clips onto a track while inside the serato view, playing the note I'd like to one time and then scratch the resulting loop? I'm particularly thinking about adaptive loop lengths here, say I'm jamming out something live and then I notice that that last bar would really make for some good scratching, so I immediately transition from my midi keyboard to my serato controller...that kind of thing. I also used Live alongside a DJ friend of mine who happens to be a Serato user, this could make for some awesome cooperative playing in that setting.

so long

Andreas aka mouzpusha

According to what both companies are saying, this is only "part one" of the serato/ableton collaboration. So supposedly there will eventually be a "part two," perhaps incorporating some of the features people have been mentioning here...

I've been using a Serato/Ableton setup for shows for years. Serato's sampler addition had poor MIDI control options, so I still had to use Ableton.

This solution looks fantastic to me.

Seems like this is useless, also it seems the ableton mix saving is pretty cool for itch, but with scratch live it wouldn't really work well. I'm excited for the other serato 2.0 effects, the playlist uploading sounds cool. Basically you can choose to upload your play histories to an online account where you can share playlists and they can have a top played section and such.

Shane: yup looks like thats out, that would have basically been rewire which would have made this useful

Heres more info from dennis on the ableton forums, basically says its only really useful for vinyl/serato users to begin with

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=1061898#...

So did they leave out the most useful feature? I want to be able to route my serato's line outs to ableton internally and run abletons outs through the serato box, essentially putting ableton in between serato and the serato box. Then you could throw down unlimited effects, combine with other clips/scenes, throw down synths/baselines live over the music, essentially do anything. I issue would be quantization and warping, but i would be happy with just the bpm from serato being sent to ableton, i really just want it as an awesome effects interface, hopefully the serato effects down suck, i feel bad for everyone who bought the denon serato controller as it's now badly out of date, and hopefully we don't have to wait till next namm for a new effect/looping controller.

It doesn't really "beg the question." Not at all. That being said, this looks pretty exciting.

i don't use serato or DJ with tables, but Serato's website specifically says that this is just the First Step in their collaboration with Ableton, and it is FREE (if you already own scratch and Live)

Curious for a demo.

I'm an late Serato user who's a later Live owner (just bought Live 8, and am slowly getting going). I've been pretty excited about migrating from Serato to Live but it's been slow @ best. So I was pretty curious to see this come out as I had heard the rumblings.

I does sound like it still favors Serato users as someone mentioned.

Another Q? I have is how this would work in Serato's internal mode.

Still looking fwd.

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I think there are alternatives to "absolute mode" ram based but obviously I'll start "mute" (as my name says) because I will implement these features inside Ms. Pinky (of course).

I still need a job...

:P

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@ Peter: I have a question, you might ask Serableton:

Would be nice to know if the vinyl-control of an Ableton set only works in relative mode or also in absolute mode (where you can drop the needle and the songposition will jump right to the corresponding time).

For absolute mode to work fluently, the whole arrangement needs to be in RAM. Assume you have 20 tracks in your arrangement. The amount of RAM as well as the computing power for resampling (scratching) each track individually would be very high. So maybe instead of working with each track individually, a single mixdown (bounce) of all tracks is stored in RAM. But than again, what happens if you trigger a clip in the embedded session view in Serato and thereby mute the corresponding track in the Live arrangement? Calculating a new bounce on the fly? Thats why I assume vinyl control of Live is only possible in relative mode, where only a window around the actual songposition has to be stored in RAM.

I have not used the product, but how is tempo addressed? My problem with trying to sync live with ssl was always that the tempo in ssl is constantly drifting. Is it still going to trainwreck every time you get a clip launched or is it going to take the tempo from one of your live ssl decks as the ableton master??

Turning ableton, this a great one as the interface. Could be used against the fabric grain and up against the vinyl, if not, vsts of the program. Furthermore, I hope that both beat and complex warping can be integrated within the cdj2000s hotkey application without the need of using a phantom-slave. I could imagine having, for an example, the headphones inside a formant-filter for added midi triggering anti-clips for serato pro's. This is the first step towards a metrophysicologic Dj, and I for one, welcome this. Discuss

Although I haven't been as eagerly anticipating this as much as some people, Bridge is an interesting concept. I wasn't expecting to see it work in two different methods (ATC vs. Mixtape); like many others I thought it was going to just be a standalone app with your standard serato interface along with the ability to sync and trigger loops and beats like in Ableton's session mode.

The practicality behind being able to record all of the info performed on a mix, especially when using control surfaces is amazing. Although many will say it's cheating on the DJ's end, I disagree. I honestly feel that the challenge of DJ-ing has become less about the technicalities these days and more about finding creative ways to deconstruct and reconstruct pieces of music using the software while trying to make it all sound cohesive.

As Live 8 has been a little buggy, even in recent updates of it, I'm hoping that Ableton will continue to focus on making it as stable as possible in the upcoming months. However I'm sure it will end up working pretty seamlessly with Ableton regardless.

@COOLOUT "Serato users…Welcome to 2008."

I understand this gripe. i beta tested Torq and was excited about the VST insert but not so excited about the vinyl emulation mode...even to this day Traktor and Torq don't measure in vinyl emulation. It's one thing to tout reliability as a DVS but just because everyone else has it isn't really the driving force behind SSL. Yes the PROs use it but because the vinyl emulation is rock solid for their needs when that's all they need it for (Jazzy Jeff as an example). The newbies can then justify why they need for whatever reason. I think REAL Dj's choose the DVS based on what types of music to play...ex: all the electronica DJ's i know use Traktor because of the built in 4 decks and effects. All DVS systems have their plus and minues and yes Serato isn't heavy on features. It never was that intention in it's early stages. What the coders wanted to get right was vinyl emulation and the tracking qualities when using basic DJ functions. The code is just solid. Windows XP, faulty RCA's, Dirty Needles, are more of a culprit in my experience. Also, lack of basic PC skills is also an issue. So combine a newbie to Djing and a newbie to computing? It just doesn't work. All hardware fails all software has bugs but when i'm doing a juggle routine and throwing in combo scratches that i could do fluidly with vinyl. i want that same response in a DVS and SSL hands down wins. Being able to do those same routines with my own Ableton clips? WIN!!!!!

As a hip hop producer/dj, this is exactly what I've needed. When I'm DJ'ing the live sets for an artist who's tracks I have produced, this should allow for some fun deconstruction on the fly.

I wonder if this hullabaloo about this just being good for Serato users... does it have something to do with that DJ battle bracket Ableton and Serato are holding? I read something about them still having minor disagreements about software development, and that they are 'settling' them with a friendly DJ battle. Not to get people's hopes up, but maybe a Serato device inside Ableton could still be forthcoming?

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Well... these "special" features are the next Pinky ones probably...

;)

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@psylozen

A few of those things are what we expected due to the hype that surrounded the partnership. But if you look closer, most of it has come unfulfilled.

If you are a Serato user that would like to dabble into Live, this is good for you. Otherwise, Live power users won't get much out of it...the "collaborative" functionality really just means the software will communicate rather than cooperate in a live setting.

I'm kinda excited by this...

As a Traktor user, there's some things I really like about Serato, particularly the wave forms.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make some assumptions.

You'll be able to:

-Live running in the background lets us use *all* of Live's functions, including instruments and plugins.

-Control, at the very least, Live clips w/ Serato vinyl.

-It would be really cool if you could map the vinyl to any control in Live.

From a programming point of view, it would be way easier to make gui adjustments to both programs so that they can access each others functions, rather than pulling bits out of each and cobbling them together into something new. So I'm pretty confident about the first two...

Which would mean that we'll be able to do things like:

-mix as usual w/ vinyl or use midi

-bye bye 2 or 4 track limit, you should be able to play however many tracks your machine can handle

-use Live's instruments to add to the tracks you're playing

-use plugins (how long have I been waiting for vst support in traktor?)

Think of the possibilities instead of shitting all over it before you even know any real details.

I think Serato has just been handed The Kitchen Sink.

Discuss (:

m.

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Nothing new...

Scratch notation is out there too...

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mixtape looks so very promising...i have been thinking of a way to implement sets from serato back into ableton multitracked...a little midi automation on the faders, the xfader and ableton eq and now i have it.

I wonder if the added latency will bug me?

Serato users...Welcome to 2008.

I've always thought Serato was overhyped and overpriced. Most people have it because everyone else does. It's to the point where the name is almost synonymous with DVS. I like the fact that at least Rane is catching up to Torq and Traktor in features, but upset because everytime they add something the fanboys act like it never existed before and overuse the new feature. When they added the sampler all of a sudden 9 or 10 serato users were hitting the "air raid" sound over every blend. God...now I'm probably going to hear shitty "live" remixes everywhere.

Don't get me wrong , IMHO if you suck as a DJ, you'll still suck with any DVS...on top of that no DVS is perfect. Torq still needs proper jogwheel support for 3rd part MIDI controllers and to address the slight sticker drift issue. Traktor could still use a dedicated sampler. But...Serato is no where the end all, be all of DVS. I've seen Serato crash on stage at least 4 times over the years.

One good thing though is the ability for Ableton to record Serato mixes as automation. This was an idea I had for Traktor but never tried out. It's possible to use a virtual midi cable to have a midi sequencer in between Traktor and a controller. Hypothetically if you managed to have traktor as the master midi clock you could then record/playback your midi controller movements and edit them inside of the sequencer. Taken even further...what if folks started to trade midi files of this data? People could trade hotcue drumming routines and even scratches the same you can trade midi mappings. Just a thought...

Co sign @Justin Reed. I always teach Serato SL1 newbies who use XP to learn how to disable memory resident programs and to learn to switch to internal mode when things go wrong with needles and tables. there is a way to set up WinXp so that as soon as you boot up a PC it boots only the essential memory resident programs and loads SL so you never see the XP desktop unless you toggle out of SL. Instant doubles is by far my favorite feature though...and now Multi decks? *drool*

oh yeah -

Downloading ableton 8 upgrade tonight while the discount is still running! This has cinched it for me. awesome sauce :)

+1 for serato stability ... all issues I have had with the use of it are related to bad needles (the software even supports losing one source elegantly with an input switch button)

i have had to use this live twice and still played seamlessly with one TT.

serato boom ba yea!

ableton boom ba yea!

this is very interesting, but i'm worried that it's going to be a bit overkill. i hope it doesn't affect the overall stability of either program.

there are a lot of DJs who only like to spin the traditional way, and a lot of Live PAs who don't use the traditional methods. there is a small group that overlaps between the two, and i'm worried that this group is too small for this product to be really successful.

the mixtape feature will surely be welcomed amongst many DJs i think!

I know we're all just speculating about possibilities here, but my curiosity is piqued. I take it Live is running in the background and Serato controls Live's tempo. Could this "background Live" then be set as the master clock in relation to another laptop? In other words, could someone use Serato+Live while someone on another computer used Live and have the whole thing synced to the turntables? Maybe I'm missing something, but this would seem easier than solutions that have come before.

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Not so bad... almost FREE!

Clap Clap Serato!

I'm waiting more news before make move...

;)

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i got a question...

and i'm not a dj at all, but this really grabs my curiosity. are you able to record what you are playing off of serato onto the ableton?

say you want to create a loop out of a beatjuggle, for example...would you be able to feed the input into one of live's tracks and record it??? kind of a weird workflow, but i think that would be an excellent feature for sure!!

my antibiotics have kicked in and I clearly can't write today.

NI has this feature (Mixtape) in Traktor 3 under the Native Mix Recorder, and then it was lost when PRO came out. I've been hammering NI as well as other to bring back the Native Mix Recorder into PRO. Maybe this will get them motivated to re-engineer it again as this is the line they posted in the NI forums is something to the effect of a while back.

I wonder how buggy this will be.

disappointing that the video on ableton's website, instead of showing what this can do, is a couple of DJs talking about how this is the 'next big thing.' yawn.

Can't wait to see this at work!!!

Trackbacks

  1. [...] already have a full post on The Bridge on Create Digital Music publishing now, but here’s the press release on the product. I actually found the description [...]

  2. [...] There’s additional first-hand information out on the web thanks to our friends at Create Digital Music. [...]

  3. [...] Here’s a great article I found RE the Serato/Ableton partnership and their software release that is “bridging the gap”.  Check the article HERE [...]

  4. [...] today, as the fruits of the collaboration between software titans Ableton and Serato have been revealed to the world. The result appears to be an integration of Ableton Live’s “session view” into [...]

  5. [...] Conheça todos os detalhes técnicos do conceito Mixtape e ATC no site da Ableton. Confira também uma análise do The Bridge no Create Digital Music. [...]

  6. [...] involve scratching clips within Ableton… not the other way around! But as you can see in an article on CDM, Ableton inside Serato Scratch Live is the case for this new release. While you check that out, [...]

  7. [...] & serato = the brigde http://createdigitalmusic.com/2010/0…ils/#more-9083 naja, sieht schon ok aus, aber es ist nicht wirklich was neues. das selbe konnte man mit traktor [...]

  8. [...] that we’ve been on the edges of our seats about for well over a year now.  CDM has the rundown and a fervent discussion; you can find more details about most of the new toys at scratchworx and [...]

  9. [...] There’s long been a massive gap in technique, capabilities, and workflow between DJ tools and performance, music production, and live electronics or live PA. Ableton Live’s original hook was that it bridged performance instrument and arrangement tool. Now, in a product literally called The Bridge, we get Ableton’s and Serato’s first take on how to blend DJing and arrangement/electronic performance. It’s certainly not going to be the last word on the subject. On CDM in the past, we’ve discussed inserting DJ applications in Live, and using vinyl to scratch video (including with Serato’s own VIDEO-SL). The advent of Max for Live means new applications, like Ms. Pinky-powered virtual vinyl devices inside Live. But The Bridge has turned out to be something different, as I discussed Thursday. [...]