It’s time to size up the new DJ integration technology from Serato and Ableton. Photo (CC-BY-SA) Danielle Blue.

There’s long been a massive gap in technique, capabilities, and workflow between DJ tools and performance, music production, and live electronics or live PA. Ableton Live’s original hook was that it
bridged performance instrument and arrangement tool. Now, in a product literally called The Bridge, we get Ableton’s and Serato’s first take on how to blend DJing and arrangement/electronic performance. It’s certainly not going to be the last word on the subject. On CDM in the past, we’ve discussed inserting DJ applications in Live, and using vinyl to scratch video (including with Serato’s own VIDEO-SL). The advent of Max for Live means new applications, like Ms. Pinky-powered virtual vinyl devices inside Live. But The Bridge has turned out to be something different, as I discussed Thursday.

And surprise: there’s even some relevance to Ableton Live users who might not normally ponder Serato, even if only to take advantage of improved transport operation in Live itself.

We’ve gotten to speak to Ableton and Serato representatives; see the short video of Ableton’s Dennis DeSantis and Ableton’s official overview of the tool, as shot by intrepid CDM NAMM contributor Neil Bufkin. Based on additional conversations, here’s what we know.

Ableton & Serato @ NAMM 2010 – The Bridge from Neil Bufkin on Vimeo.

Serato to Ableton

Q. What’s this “mix tape” feature about?

A. That’s the easiest to explain, most immediate feature of The Bridge — and it’s the one that’s likely to be appealing to Serato users immediately. You can now export mixes produced in Serato directly into Ableton’s native ALS format.

Q. Wait – does that mean I need Serato ITCH or Scratch Live hardware controllers in order to record my crossfades?

A. Yes. Turntablists aren’t entirely left out, though: the Rane TTM 57SL and the newly-announced TTM-68 performance mixers do record mix automation. And you’ll still have other automation data with which to work, so this is still likely to be useful to everyone, even if there’s some level of variability between the different versions. (If that’s of interest, we can follow up more later.)

Ableton’s Jesse Terry confirms to CDM: “Audio files are laid out in Live’s arrangement on a timeline, according to when they are loaded on a deck in Scratch Live or ITCH. These are new audio files, to deal with scratching, etc, but they are named accordingly.”

Ableton has also posted more information on mixtapes and specific hardware on their Mixtape tour.

Q. CDM said ALS is now an XML-based format – really? When did that happen?

A. Yes, really. Live switched to an XML format with Live 8.1. In fact, save any of your Live sets in Live 8.1.x or later, and all the information about clips, channels, presets, and arrangements winds up in an open, standard format. That’s something I hope to look at more soon, because it could lead to some interesting hacks and power tools. But the reason it’s relevant here is that you can likely thank the Serato and Cycling ’74 (Max for Live) collaborations for making this a necessity – even as this has potential advantages well beyond The Bridge.

Ableton “Inside” Serato

Q. I see clips from Live Session View in Serato. But that’s just audio clips, right? What about MIDI patterns, instruments, effects, plug-ins?

A. Ableton Live is running in the background. The Bridge requires both a full copy of Live and a full copy of Serato (Scratch Live or ITCH) for a reason: the real, full-blown Live runs at the same time as Serato does. That means everything you can do with Live normally, you can do with Serato, Live, and The Bridge: you can trigger MIDI patterns, use Live’s internal Devices like Drum Racks and Grain Delay, run third-party plug-in instruments and effects, and even – if you’re feeling especially crazy – Max for Live devices.

Q. Wait – but I can do all those things in Live now, and I still even a crossfader. So why wouldn’t I just DJ with Live and skip all of this additional complexity?

A. Answer: you might decide to do just that, especially if you’re a seasoned Live user. On the other hand, Serato DJs can get a chance to infuse more interactive performance bits into their performance easily, and they have manual control over transport tempo and timing. And if you split your time between Live and Serato – which some DJ/performers certainly do – this could mean being able to move from one to the other seamlessly rather than having to switch apps. But yes, of course: this isn’t going to be the right solution for everyone, even those looking to combine Live with DJing. We’ll be looking at other options, too.

Q. What does the integration itself do?

A. What you see:

  • A limited window on Session View: You can see 4, 5, or 8 scenes, and 4, 6 or 8 tracks, clip color and status (just as in Session View), track controls, and two sends. You also get effect device controls and two sends.
  • Live’s tempo
  • Indicators for bars and beats, overlaid atop your waveform views in Serato, so it’s easy to see how the two are meshing (or not)
  • A sync player, which Ableton’s Jesse describes as being useful “for adding embellishing songs, in case you’d like to assign Ableton Live’s sync to a song on one of your decks, with out using up that deck with a Live Set.”
  • DJ-style Looping of Ableton Live’s Transport — that is, the entire transport for the entire set, not just an individual clip. “This is a big one,” says Jesse, “as previously Ableton Live users weren’t able to loop like this, i.e. Do 16th note looping, and when you exit the loop, you end up back on the ‘one.’”

What you can do:

  • Control Live’s transport: play and stop with Serato as if Live itself is another deck.
  • Sync Live and Serato easily, without having to worry about which you load first.
  • Change tempo in Live.
  • Nudge forward and backward (which should make for some nice beat syncopation effects with the pairing).
  • Use ITCH or virtual vinyl to control the Live transport.

What you can’t do — yet:

  • There’s no reverse audio recording of the output of Live — there’s no way to route audio from Live into Serato, period. So –
  • You can NOT scratch or reverse Live’s audio as if it were another deck (yet; of course, it’d be nice to see this in a future release).

(“Yet” is the operative word, as I expect The Bridge may add additional features over time.)

Q. If I can’t scratch Live, I’m out.

A. That’s a valid response. On the other hand, there’s some powerful potential here for adding instruments, effects, and clips, particularly if you keep it simple and balance what’s in Live with what’s in Serato. I’m sure some DJ will make great use of this, even if it won’t be for everyone.

Q. Won’t adding plug-ins interfere with the stability of Serato?

A. That’s worth considering. Aside from stability problems or crashes, adding a lot of plug-ins could increase resource consumption on your computer, add more musical complexity that you have to control, and even – in the case of certain plug-ins that require latency compensation – impact your timing. So Serato users, you’ll want to be really careful and test thoroughly before gigging with a massive Serato-Live set.

Q. How do Serato and Live output to your audio interface, if they’re not routing audio into one another? Can they share an audio output? Might some people just route audio separate for independent mixing and busing via a mixer?

A. That’s a good question, and the short answer is, I don’t know. I turned to Ableton for an answer, but it seems like we may have to wait for more details. Jesse Terry advises us to “stay tuned, we are aware of the complications here and are working to find a simple solution for the end user.”

Q. How do I trigger clips in Live from the Serato interface? Can I use ITCH controllers?

A. Right now, there aren’t ITCH or Scratch Live controllers with controls dedicated for Live, though presumably such hardware could appear in the future. So you can use ITCH or Scratch Live to control the Live transport, and you can see visual feedback in the Serato interface as far as what’s happening in Live, but that’s about it. While we wait to see if new hardware combines these functions, though, you can use an ITCH or Scratch Live controller for Serato and any MIDI controller for Live, including devices like the APC40, Launchpad, a monome, a nanoKONTROL – whatever.

Q. What enables the transport sync between the two programs? Why not just use ReWire?

A. Actually, early prototypes of The Bridge did use ReWire. But ReWire has some limitations, like the inability of a client to use plug-ins or record audio (at least according to the spec), and ultimately people I talked to at both Serato and Ableton felt it wasn’t the right tool for this job. “Serato and Ableton created an entirely new interapplication communication protocol to make the timing as tight as possible,” says Ableton’s Jesse.

Q. Will we get to use this transport protocol for anything other than Serato and Ableton, if it works so well?

A. Maybe. Right now, it’s a proprietary sync spec that works only with these two tools. This is normally where I give my “open standard” speech, but I think it’d be too early to judge whether the solution Ableton and Serato found would even be useful with anything else. It does raise questions for other developers, though, about what sorts of general solutions might work. (Case in point: I recently saw a demo synchronizing 3D rendering, video, and animation tool Blender with the DAW Ardour, all using free software on Linux to do something that’s not currently possible with expensive proprietary solution. What made it tick? A free, open technology called JACK, which does transport interconnects as well as audio and MIDI.)

Side note: I’ve heard from Live users making insanely intensive use of synchronization and timing that they’re finding sync performance is improved under 8.1.1 builds and later. There are a lot of variables in sync, but it’s interesting anecdotal evidence, at least, and The Bridge did require some under-the-hood work on Live’s timing – always a good thing.

The Bridge – Availability, Pricing

Q. What will this cost?

A. So long as you own a copy of Live 8 or Live Suite, plus a copy of Serato, The Bridge is free; there’s no add-on cost if you own both products as there was with Max for Live. (Note that LE/Lite/Starter editions of Live would not quality, and would require an upgrade to the full version.)

Q. Is there a release date?

A. No release date has been announced yet.

Q. Is it working now?

A. Yes, actually – The Bridge is up and functioning with current builds of Live; it’s just not publicly available yet.

Q. Will the release of The Bridge be impacted by the decision Ableton made to delay new releases in order to focus on fixing bugs and reliability?

A. Yes and no. Ableton says they’re not releasing any new versions until they’re again fully satisfied with quality. So that will delay The Bridge. On the other hand, The Bridge is working, so while the release is delayed, The Bridge is coming – and my money says it shouldn’t be too far off.

By the way, the work done on The Bridge may have an impact in the opposite direction. “The work being done for the Bridge helps tighten up Live’s transport for all Live users,” says Jesse. And given how closely a lot of you rely on that transport, that’s good news.

I think that should cover it for now. This is the first-generation product, and it’s not even out yet. But we’ll be sure to cover more developments as they arise, and as we get closer to the release of The Bridge.

Lastly, here’s Ableton’s current video. Unfortunately, what it doesn’t show is video footage of the software in action, just some DJ celebrities talking about how excited they are. (“It’ll change lunchmeat forever!” “It’ll make your face melt!”) Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I’m guessing you’d like to see the tool; stay tuned.

And yes, if none of this is floating your boat, and your face isn’t melting, I’m working on showing more of what Ms. Pinky can do with Max for Live. Having more choices is always good; it means you can find the best choice for you.

  • dpav

    pretty nice

  • http://xfader.com regend

    interapplication communication protocol INTERESTING and that Linux setup could use a good thorough article.

  • prevolt

    So can Serato understand and pass along an .asd file from a warped song or video playing on one of its decks to Ableton for syncing playback?

    That's the possibility I'm most interested in.

  • http://nezoomie.wordpress.com/ nezoomie

    I'll love to see such an interest about tight timing between multiple copies of Live. Maybe an open solution. I had horrible experiences with 8.1.1, worst than 8.1

  • Justin Reed

    Q. What will this cost?

    A. So long as you own a copy of Live 8 and Live Suite, plus a copy of Serato

    i hope this is a mistake – why would they require the full live suite for this?

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    It wants to said or instead of and (live8 users and live8 suite users could benefit of "Bridge"

    About "these protocol" it will be cool do it "open" instead "handshaked" maybe "anothers" developers could upgrade the concept and benefit all users…

    Just my2cents.

  • Progressive Soul

    Live already has the ability to assign channels to a crossfader. I dont get why they didn't just take it a step further and enable Serato's technology to scratch audio clips within live. It would be dope if I could use a ttm57sl or the new 68 (so i can have four decks). or any combination of serato's interfaces with live and just live. I think that may come with live 9. lets cross or fingers bow our heads and pray that this is what will happen with the next release. Shit the name of the program is LIVE. and as much as I love midi, I gotta have me vinyl.

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    Sorry, sorry — thanks for the catch. Live 8 OR Live Suite AND Serato Scratch OR Serato Live. ;)

    @Mudo: Yes, it'd definitely be great to have an open protocol. In this case, there's no "handshaking" — it's simply a protocol that's just been implemented in these two tools and hasn't been published. Now, whether it makes sense for them to publish this spec, whether it'd be relevant to others if they did, whether they'll decide this makes business sense to them (aside from technical sense), whether they've thought that far… or whether we need something new that is open… those are all open questions.

    Existing open standards: MIDI, ReWire (not open source but available to anyone to implement), JACK (though with different functionality depending on what's made available by the OS), OSC. You could build on any of those as a starting point.

    I think before you even get that far, though, you'd want to ask the question of what it is you really want first. Any standard would have to grow out of that. Some of this came up in our discussion Friday night; we should have more follow-up (and video) on that soon.

  • djproben

    Hopefully with Ableton files in XML format NI will be able to replicate mixtape functionality in Traktor. This would be really cool. From the DJ end I could see how mixtape would be great but it will be a drag if you have to buy Serato-specific hardware to use it. (Which brings up the question, will Serato ever sell a version of ITCH that can work on any MIDI controller? Or is that a pipe dream….)

    I have a question about this interview though, it says "These are new audio files, to deal with scratching, etc, but they are named accordingly." That's not totally clear to me – are the scratches recorded as audio or are they recorded as manipulations of the original soundfile via the turntable (or jog wheel or whatever)? The description of mixtape's functionality suggests the latter but then why would he say this here?

  • PooPoo the Korruptah

    yawn.

  • J. Phoenix

    My initial impression is that this seems a lot like Live as a VST inside Serato, where I suppose my hope lay with Serato becoming a control means within Ableton.

    I'm not a DJ, but I am very interested in the idea of using time-code vinyl as a way to manipulate or control aspects. There's something about music in an infinite circle or a finite spiral that's very appealing, for more than just scratching or putting two tracks together.

    One example off the top of my head is using the timecode as a independent tempo control parameter, or transport control. Another is using various positions, speed, and direction of vinyl timecode to affect parameters on an effect. To say nothing of video possibilities. There's more that's possible than what the direction they seem to have gone in.

    Still, I do think some DJ's are going to be head over heels about this. I know enough kids that use Ableton Live for rote DJ'ing tracks sans vinyl control and enough DJ's trying to use Ableton to drop an extra loop into their sets that I think they'll be a market for this.

    But I don't think the feature set really appeals to me until the workflow really goes both ways, letting us use them in a complete and/or method rather than one inside the other, with an option to rearrange a mix set-list.

  • turnie

    This is just a synced Serato / Live Setup on one screen.

    It just gives Serato Users the ability to fire clips (how they gonna be in Sync to the Serato Decks? I don´t think the will. When i load a properly warped (you guys know what i mean) Track into one of these Decks, will the Serato Deck see where i set the markers?). The least i expected for Ableton Users was two waveformviews, because its the nature of all other DJ Software besides Live. But it went down to NO waveformview… Sorry, i can´t see any step forward for Live Users. Scratching? I hook up a turntable to my Mixer and Scratch.. no big deal. I don´t Scratch mp3´s, but i have for sure the "lowest latency" with that setup. And thats about what "The Bridge" is. If one has Traktor Scratch and Syncs up with Live, one can do probably all the things the Bridge can and even more.

    So, where is the big deal?

    The possibility for Serato Users to bring a hole mix with asd File in to Live and overdo it? Come on! That is just recording two Stereo Audio Signals and on MIDI Signal. And it´s a chance for all the DJ´s they called AL DJs cheaters, to cheat as well (in there eyes).

    I heard you need extra Soundcards for each of the programs. I think it´s audacious to come up with a "Solution" that unready, just because it´s NAMM. RANE don´t even has ASIO nor Core Audio drivers for their new sixty-eight mixer! But you can hook up two computers to it. Abletonwise even this brandnew Mixer, from their collaboration Partners, is kind of useless. So for the bridge you need: Serato Scratch Live, a RANE Soundcard or a RANE Mixer, because Serato uses this as a dongle and they have their own Audio Drivers (No, they did not make any ASIO or Core Audio drivers for that hardware. Not even with regards to the collaboration with Ableton.), Ableton Live Full Version (why?) and a extra Soundcard, a Mixer, so you can Mix Audio from Ableton and Serato (you gotta be kiddin), two turntables… Thanks Ableton, thank you Serato for this FREE Software.

    The good thing about it: I don´t need to spent money. I stay with 7 and i´m fine. Two years of development? What a waste of time…

  • Martin

    After reading this for 3 times i still have no idea what The Bridge actually does and why i should use it. Might be me though, i´m sure i´ll get it one day …

  • http://www.thecovertoperators.org Bjorn Vayner

    @Martin

    Its like an APC/Launchpad inside Serato (which can incidentally be controlled by an APC or launchpad..)

    On the other side you have Audio input from Serato into Live without it taking up the preferences of the one Audio Interface you can use with Live. And without the limitations from working with Rewire.

    Serato's Audio engine can scratch audio, Live's can't. The M4L engine can though.

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    @Peter: About handshaking read turnie POV. Hardware dongle is the key. Is gona ableton open the "bridge" without Rane/Serato hardsoft?

    @JPhoenix: These "Big Knob" feature (announced but not released) is midi/hid/osc from turntable. This is already with ms Pinky maxipatch AO last beta and you have the same "free" output in the maxforlive patch waiting for develops (in this way or wathever you wish/want/can make). All of this "mindblowing" ideas were done with ms pinky (sync with resolume, vdmx and so many others develops… at last you have the SDK for implement yourself if you wish/want/can make…

    @Martin: The Bridge is to take control of Live with turntables. No more fight Controllerism vs Turntablism = Enjoy Tooltablism.

    @Bjorn: Again handshake (and in my opinion open source communities rip offs…)

    Of course I'm very happy about all those ideas and implementation in serato but I will love a open solution to let choose users.

    I haven't so much money to drop into closed solutions and I think open communities integrated inside these "corps" will be the future. Of course Copyrights (at this actual encarnation) and hardware dongle (to fight against piracy and reverse engieneeren have a bad side… make slow progress)

    The Bridge was an a 2008 idea. Check internet.

  • http://www.thecovertoperators.org Bjorn Vayner

    Not sure what the handshake comment has got to do with me. The Serato thing isn't magic and they never promised it to be. Its just a simpler way to use the 2 applications. Which I'm sure they said when they made the first announcement over a year ago.

    I don't even understand what open source has to do with this. Rewire sucked for translating vinyl timecode to MIDI timecode or whatever Live now has under the hood. 2 companies bypassed that problem. Doesn't mean the same solution would work with any other hardware.

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    I was talking about this part:

    "Its like an APC/Launchpad inside Serato (which can incidentally be controlled by an APC or launchpad..)"

    This fact is full documented LiveApi access + Python Scripting. Until now closed to any other solution (maxforlive included) and then you pay for Rane/serato (in this case) Hardware to "unlock" hidden features (from LiveApi). I don't think Rane Hardware has any kind of DSP… only any kind of "dongle" (like microcontroller).

    If Ableton release the LiveApi+Python protocol resources (documentation) and access then "anyone" could make its own "briges".

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    @Mudo: This is a different issue than the one with the APC. It's not locked to hardware; it is, however, only implemented in this software. So yes, you can't use this sync protocol with any other software. As for Serato's need for certain hardware, that's up to Serato.

  • http://www.myspace.com/jamesyanisko JamesY

    So, maybe this can be more interesting than I originally thought.

    But, even from a serato + live user – who does not have to buy anything else to use the bridge – would STILL have to buy a new mixer if I wanted to use all the new features. The mix tape is what I find to be the most intriguing aspect of what this is doing. Right now, I'm making mixes that I know I'm going to want to tweak to perfection basically one track at at time, which leaves out anything to do with juggling or instant looping – i end up having to do that in the software – which makes it less organic, and feel more programmed – and i do different things with each workflow.

    Everyone who wants to scratch loops and song sections from live in serato can right now. just bounce them before the set, load them as either samples or tracks (beat match like playing the other songs) and tada, you have your extra loops and remixes….but the mix tape feature, the ability to tweak your performance just like you do with any other medium (guitar, singing, etc) to make your mix just what you have in your head for releasing is extremely intriguing.

    Too bad I have to change my workflow if I want to implement that.

    Maybe more mixers in the future will have digital information output with the faders? Like, if the next gen pioneer DJM 909 could track fader changes – and I could record an output with the effects separate, that would be amazing!

    anywho…still looking forward to how this actually works….and still not sure if it adds anything to my workflow without spending another 1500 on a new mixer.

  • http://www.thecovertoperators.org Bjorn Vayner

    The monome community already has pretty much the same access in their own open source python hack and have been using it as such.

    The Live API stuff only got documented because of M4L, but that isn't stopping anybody from reading the references at Cycling74.com and applying that knowledge to do their python hacks. Beyond knowing what a function call does, what more documentation do you need?

  • http://nezoomie.wordpress.com/ nezoomie

    An open and clear documentation about control surfaces for example. At least as I understood and found on internet, every user-made python control surface around is the result of reverse engineering of decompiled python scripts (workaround included).

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    @Bjorn What about the Red cuadrature around clips with APC40?

    What about Clip Scratching and drag and drop clips into maxforlive devices?

    And if we are talking about LiveApi internals Why not Ableton "share" information instead WE MUST search and research and reverse engineering?

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    I expect Ableton's answer to Mudo's question would be that they don't want to be responsible for supporting things by virtue of having documented them (or some variation thereof).

    But yes, I'm interested in getting greater documentation of some of these features. That XML format, for instance, should be manageable.

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    @Peter: Sure but the work is done for the bridge and if it is not hardware dongled Why don't release this fantastic and useful documentation for monomers or pinksters?

    I asked Ableton and DL Pinkstah asked cycling'74 and they drop a silence.

  • http://www.createdigitalmusic.com Peter Kirn

    I asked that. The answer was that they say they aren't sure this protocol would be relevant to anyone else. It may be specific to the way Serato and Ableton work. Now, I'd still like to see open documentation of how *Ableton* transport control works, though; I think that's fair. But it is generally extra work to go back and document this stuff for larger consumption. I expect at least some users would be glad if Ableton invested that time. And I think at least, we ought to see some of this transport accessible from Max for Live.

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    Ok. Let's see.

  • Jason

    As an avid Ableton Live user both in the studio and in an a live performance setting, The Bridge is the biggest let down in ages.

    I will echo many other comments when I say that all we wanted was to be able to control Live clips and audio with vinyl. That's it. It is certainly asking a lot, but there was no one asking for a Serato/Ableton "Bridge".

    To me, this seems like a step in the wrong direction.

    Ableton already licenses it's time-stretching technology from another company (their name escapes me), so I don't see why they can't just either switch to Serato's or find someway to incorporate that missing piece of the puzzle into their exisiting time stretching software. I know it is much more complicated than I am making it seem, but it seems like Ableton has been rock solid this past year on delivering what the consumers want as far as M4L, the apc40 and the Launchpad.

    The Bridge seems like a weak shadow of what could have been or what may be in the future, but I will again echo that I am anxiously awaiting to see how Ms. Pinky functions.

    @Peter Kirn Thanks for the blog(s). Long time reader, first time commenter. Met up with the Dubspot guys through it, so please keep on doing what you are doing. :) It is much appreciated.

  • http://www.hiddendriveways.net Hidden Driveways

    Turnie Said: "So for the bridge you need: Serato Scratch Live, a RANE Soundcard or a RANE Mixer… Ableton Live… and an extra Soundcard, a Mixer, so you can Mix Audio from Ableton and Serato (you gotta be kiddin)…"

    If The Bridge does not meld the two programs so they can share the output of the Rane or ITCH interface, then this is a bridge to nowhere.

    Was Sarah Palin involved with this somehow?

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    Ms Pinky has some limits due to LiveApi and Ableton support for clip control in maxforlive.

    In the same way, now Ms. Pinky is a beta more or less… waiting for community support. It is like a way of life and open share devices to let users implement and customizate these devices.

    Maxforlive was release recently in comparision with the in junction work of "The Bridge" and the last year Ms. Pinky was murder sentency over her head (in a lawsuit form)… lucky for all of us, the worst has gone but we still need to "grow" this user/developers community… who need live/mfl for start coding/enjoying.

    Ms Pinky is a young girl in "this is a meeeen world"

    ;)

  • Adrian Anders

    It would have been nice if The Bridge actually had audio communication. I assume that only a single instance of Live was running with The Bridge instead of one for each deck. I don't think scratching Live would be needed, but it would be nice to be able to in real time (on a sufficiently fast machine) load one Live project file and cueing the start transport while another is playing on a separate Serato deck/audio stream. That way each Live project would be its own self-contained "Song" making for cooler DJ-style live sets rather than the current method of coming up with set lists in advance (if one were to keep the audio running at all times during a set). Flexibility of the Bridge is kinda Meh right now. A step forward, but not enough for me to go out and upgrade Live and buy a Serato product.

    I would have been more interested in Serato adding VST support to their existing product.

  • http://www.thecovertoperators.org Bjorn Vayner

    @Mudo

    Not sure what you're smoking, but I know you aren't sharing with the group. :)

    As far as the disappointment goes. Ableton and Serato never promised anything more than integration between the 2 apps. They said so when this first was announced. Scratching an actual Live set which contains MIDI and samples like a vinyl record just isn't technically possible afaik. For that you need real-time rendering with the ability to manipulate the sound while its being rendered.

  • theotherdoor

    I think The Bridge is a godsend for DJs who own serato and ableton yet not a geek.

  • http://filchmedia.squarespace.com Filch

    I for one am very interested in the Ms. Pinky application and how it differs from this implementation.

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    @Bjorn:

    I shared and shared… my sharings are over the net and abelton, Serato, cycling and so on mailboxes are full.

    What do you want to share this time? I'm being so proud as I can because I'm trying to make the things open but not depends only by me.

    Serato has announced and I was taling before their announcement and before cycling'74 announcement…

    In the other hand: analog xfade tracking is now possible.

    Midi clip scratching is now possible.

    and so many other things that I CAN'T share before I will be sure it is not closed into a copyright patent or depending from 3rd party collaborators.

    My smoking is about LiveApi dirt play.

    That's all.

  • http://www.thecovertoperators.org Bjorn Vayner

    Something must be getting lost in translation because I'm not sure what you're trying to open up.

    The API is as open as it probably ever will be.

    Documenting and supporting abuse of the API is now done because of M4L. It also means improvements will come because of it.

    They're still not done documenting it, why would they go through that trouble again to support the handful of people that know how to code in python when they can support it with Max, Javascript, Python in max, OSC, MIDI, Etc..

  • Anon
  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    @Bjorn

    As I said to Peter: Let's see…

    but what about clip transport and red square in APC40? These are demanded by users (which must hack the api for implement their surface controls meanwhile Akai and Serato has full documented).

    It is not only about python coding, it is about limitations of LiveApi and no documented "hacks" (or handshakes)

    Of course my english is not so good sorry… sometimes maybe we are talking in the same direction but "lost in translation" myself.

    Excuse me.

    ;)

  • http://www.thecovertoperators.org Bjorn Vayner

    People have been building patches to get and abuse clip transport data for a while. You can't scratch it, but neither can Live on its own..

    As for the red square, its part of the SessionComponent. Granted, there isn't a lot of documentation on that, but there are example patches and some people have been able to get positioning data from it.

    As for the handshake business, the "handshake" is apparently just "a string of sysex that tells which device is connected and which modes should be activated in Live". But that wouldn't have sounded cool in the NAMM videos I suppose.

    If all this grid stuff was exclusive, then why is the sessioncomponent filled with functions like "set grid size" or "set scene offset" ?

  • Jason

    @Bjorn

    I agree with you on the APC40 and Launchpad issues. (Hopefully) Ableton would not promise full support for either of the controllers, and then deliver that promise in a half-assed kind of way. Not being able to scroll up and down the clip view would be ridiculous, and I'm sure there are midi-mappable buttons for up and down the clip view as there are in ableton.

    Although, The Bridge seems kind of half assed, so I could be wrong.

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    @Bjorn:

    About red square ¿It is possible to work with monome? (sorry about my ignorance)

    About clips it is not possible drag and drop clips neither, clips scratching and drag and drop in the bridge is done with Python bridge. I'm only wanting the same info to add into my mfl patches (as a legal user of booth softwares Live and mfl)

    I'm researching so much info to get sured about documented LiveApi but I'm not sure to success where "partners" has success due to "closed" info.

    That's my frustration.

  • http://www.thecovertoperators.org Bjorn Vayner

    @Jason

    Not sure which post you're addressing. But both controllers already have a scrolling option.

    @Mudo

    It should work. All the functions are there, we just don't know yet what to send. At least I don't, somebody may have figured it out. The sessioncomponent is the object to address.

    You have more information about what python does it seems, so I can't tell what it has to do with scratching.

    I thought the python bit was just the fake apc (control grid) in serato that triggers audio files in Serato's audio engine.

  • http://www.thecovertoperators.org Bjorn Vayner

    In regards to the red ring, check out some of these posts: http://bit.ly/6yuive

    Stuff figured out so far includes calling and setting offsets. If you ask Ableton Support, they don't say it will not work. But there is also no documentation yet.

  • http://www.e-lectronica.com/luthierlab/ Mudo

    Thanks for all :D

    This setence is what I try to explain:

    If you ask Ableton Support, they don’t say it will not work. But there is also no documentation yet.

    Dissappointtinnggggg!

  • maverick00010

    Sounds Great i gotta check it out.

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