(Note – please see update at the end of this story regarding controversy over this device in the Live community.)

Ableton Live users have wanted an LFO for a long time. Using basic wave shapes, you’d be able to modulate anything in a set, from clip parameters to instruments and effects, producing shifting timbres or rhythmic patterns or anything you’d like.

Julien Bayle, the Marseilles-based (certified) Live guru, ambient musician (as protofuse), and builder of the protodeck controller, has built a solution. “LFO Everything in Live” is a Max for Live device that allows you to control any parameter anywhere in Live using LFO waveforms. Features:

  • Tempo sync toggle
  • Multiple waveshapes – new ones added this version – or draw your own.
  • Route an LFO to another LFO to another LFO, etc., for some sophisticated signal chains.
  • Lifetime free updates.

You’ll need a recent version of Live – 8.2.1 required – plus a copy of Max for Live. But if you’ve got those two things, prepare for some serious LFO goodness.

The tool is normally EUR8, but anticipating some interest from CDM readers, you can get it for EUR6 and go buy yourself an espresso (or two) instead. Use coupon code CR3AT3 (first fifteen buyers only – you might ask nicely to extend that)!
http://designthemedia.com/products/abletonlive/
Follow Protofuse/Julien on Twitter, Facebook, and if you have opinions about what kind of hardware he should be building, take his survey

I’d still like to see an LFO as a default device, and for Max for Live devices to be easier to distribute to users who don’t own a copy – as well as for more M4L patchers to use a GPL license for patches they’re selling. But this looks like a terrific solution, nonetheless, and could really change the feeling of working with Live. Great work, Julien!

Updated: You’ll find plenty of reader discussion of alternative LFO patches for Max for Live, along with what people think of their relative merits, in comments. The maxforlive.com library is a terrific resource.

Also, unfortunately, I’ve learned of a dispute between Julien and an author of another LFO plug-in; I can’t comment directly on the content of that debate because I don’t feel I have all the facts. If a third party wishes to step in and let us know your opinion, please feel free. Otherwise, I’ve asked these two authors to communicate with one another directly.

Since asking them to do so, it appears they have not reached a resolution. You can follow the forum thread on Ableton’s forum in which Max for Live users weigh in here, as well as on the original LFO Everything thread.

Pictures:

  • http://www.nofi.org Jeffrey Melton

    This looks interesting. It's amazing how complex something like an LFO can be under the hood. For free alternatives, check out the LFO category of the Max for Live Free Device Library at&nbsp ;http://www.maxforlive.com/library/index.php?tag=lfo
    I use and recommend Device LFO 1.1,&nbsp ;http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=354
    Cheers,

  • dood

    funny, ive been dreaming about this for weeks.

    i too wish m4l patches could be used in live without having m4l, like the reaktor play engine.

    time will tell, im sure we will get something like this soon, till then, i cant justify the price of m4l after purchasing live.

  • cdbsn

    the only issue i have with these types of devices is that each parameter change the LFO/Modulator makes shows up in your undo history, as if you were manually tweaking the parameter.

    never the less, I LOVE having a whole buncha modulators in effect! so I deal. :D

  • http://www.dexixer.com Plauto Camargo

    Simply amazing !!!!!

    Ableton developers should hire new employees, who were able to effectively implement the desires of users, as this device LFO. Today unfortunately the only Ableton demand partnerships that bring financial returns, leaving the product Ableton Live in the background.

  • http://www.inoutfest.org Flplsx

    Renoise is a brilliant example of what you can do with these types of devices. Simply being able to put a send anywhere in your effects chain increases your sound design possibilities by a large amount.

    Good job Julien! Should have bought it when it was still 6 euros, damn!

  • http://dancerobotdance.com Brian Biggs

    There have been LFOs in the device library for some time now, most of which can modulate Live devices and parameters. LineFO is a simple example. But this thing definitely looks like it's a notch above. Being able to draw in waveforms is a great idea.

  • Tausif

    CAN SOMEONE SAY WOMPSTEP?

  • characterstudios

    Nice one, thanks for the tip.

  • http://routeit.noisepages.com gbsr

    really peter. you post an article on this which is a payware max for live device while there are multiple of free alternative (which you fail to mention), but you still havent posted about ClyphX, which is the best addon to live to date (and free at that)?

    one would have thought that you would show more support to a truly openended hack and is promoting the users to fiddle with it, and learn the scripting language (as it can do just about anything, really)  rather then an lfo that wobbles things and wants moneys for it.

    really.

  • http://noisepages.com/members/julienbayle/ Julien Bayle

    free alternatives don't offer support.

    I do.

    and I love open-source.

    and if you buy it, it is up to you to tweak it.

  • http://noisepages.com/members/julienbayle/ Julien Bayle

    @cdbsn : undo history is just a consequence of the use of live.object~ instead of live.remote~ ; that way provides the control of a parameter during his modulation. by using live.remote~ it would be locked. But I have another idea… for the 2.0 maybe …!

  • Peter Kirn

    @gbsr: Well, I'm flattered that people do regularly assume I'm aware of everything all the time, but of course, I'm not. I depend in large part upon people letting me know about things; that's why we have open comments and an open inbox. Julien got in touch to let me know about LFO. I haven't heard much from a lot of M4L developers or users, to be honest.

    I think if people are using alternatives, I'd love to hear about them.

    I am nonetheless impressed by Julien's work.

    ClyphX is free as in beer, as near as I can tell, but it's not open source. (And naturally, neither is Ableton Live or Max for Live, nor have they ever claimed to be.) Whether you charge money, anyway, is a separate issue. I still stand by my earlier assertion, which is that developers should explicitly state the license for their work so users know what they are free to do with it. That can include considering a GPL as a license for paid patches – the two are very much compatible. How you license your work and what you charge should be up to the developer; I think it'll benefit the developer to explicitly say what that is, whatever they choose.

  • http://www.touch-able.com Sylvain Garcia

    "free alternatives don’t offer support.I do."

    Everything is here. :)

    Full support,

     best lfo m4l device (I ve been testing absolutely every m4l around the web).

  • Peter Kirn

    I can actually sum up what I was saying below:

    The collective knowledge and intelligence of the readers here is far greater than my own. It's why I do what I do.

    So, I'm eager to hear frank and honest opinions of what you use! And that includes frank and honest opinions of Julien's work – but only if you've given it a try, naturally; otherwise there's not a lot to say!

  • danny s

    hmm, while i haven't tried this out, cdbsn's comment points out something kind of annoying.  do all of the lfo m4l devices have this limitation (lfo-adjusted parameters added to undo history)?  i guess this isn't the fault of the device, more the nature of the m4l control of live… doh.

  • http://routeit.noisepages.com gbsr

    i did notify you about clyphx and i was hoping for a post about it because it really could use the attention. the guy doesnt even want to accept donations, just wants people to use it. im just a bit suprised that you would post about an lfo for money withouth even a anecdotal mention towards an opensourced scripting language for live. just seems like odd priorities to me. oh and yeah, incase you want to go on about that: "However, it is open source so you’re welcome to modify it in any way you see fit. Also, Live itself includes a variety of methods for assigning continuous controls to parameters (such as User Remote Scripts, MIDI Remote Scripts and MIDI mapping)." by the creator himself, in his very own forum. fancy that.

  • salamanderanagram

    that GUI needs some serious love, IMO.

  • http://noisepages.com/members/julienbayle/ Julien Bayle

    @salamanderanagr : any ideas? suggestions? I'm … open :)

    @all: about money and complex about that. I don't want to get rich. and of course I don't become with that. be quiet, I'm okay and I'm giving a lot to communities yet…!

  • salamanderanagram

    @julien – first off i meant no offense and i'm not necessarily great at design myself. but here's my immediate thoughts –

    in general, this thing looks *huge* for an LFO. there are 3 scope-type objects and i can only tell what one is four by looking at it.

    the little scope above the "custom waveform" button or tag could be centered in it's space a bit better, it looks like it's overlapping the waveform drawing area.

    also, i'm not sure how i feel about the black background, it's a little inconsistent with the rest of the color scheme and makes things stick out a bit more than i think they should. if the background is going to be black, i feel like it should be black everywhere.

    the huge "on" button (if that's what it is) seems redundant because live devices have an on/off switch in the top left corner. if it does have a purpose i feel like it should take up quite a bit less space.

    the Hz and Tempo areas look like only one should be visible at any point in time, thus taking up half as much space. in reaktor this is easy, not sure about max/msp.

    "deepness" should probably just be depth.

    again, people have different tastes for interfaces, and i mean no offense, only constructive criticism.

    @everybody – the cost is pretty low, and if you have live 8 and max4live, the value is pretty high.

  • Human Plague

    Dear Live users, congratulations on your new Renoise feature! Check out Renoise's other #meta devices for more M4L ideas.

    Nah, I'm just kidding. Good to see some cool patches. Keep it up.

  • Lucho

    This looks like it was designed by a team of blind monkeys

  • http://www.nofi.org Jeffrey Melton

    I have thought for years that Ableton should release an LFO Midi Effect in Live but gathered they think using their automation lanes and dummy clips are enough. I think devices like LFO Everything fit that need nicely. My suggestion of free alternatives was for people to try out the usefulness of such a device rather than meant as a dig against this product. I for one have no problem paying for M4L devices that are top-notch, DensityM4L and PulsaretM4L being two prime examples. (Both worth the money, IMHO, and turned me back on to non-sequenced/microsound compositions.) Anyone who frequents the various Max/MSP/Monome/Max for Live sites know that the predominant attitude among patchers is that Free-and-Open Rules All, which may be were some of this ambivalence stems from. YMMV and all that jazz.

  • http://inkbottle.hauntedink.com Michael

    I would love to try out LFO Everything. In fact, I went and bought it at the website (with the discount). Sadly, it's not working on my computer–can't even drop it into a track.

  • Zoopy

    What's the reason for this not existing in Live? 

  • cdbsn

    @zoopy: if you search the ableton user community forums Robert Henke wrote a thread about the problems that a native Midi LFO presents.

  • cdbsn

    @Julien: Im not complaining at all, like i said, Im just glad to have the funtionality. My workflow involves resampling/bouncing files down anyways. thanks for the effort you have made thus far!

  • Juno

    You can use the LFOs in VDMX if you have that.

  • heinrichz

     one  the first must haves of mfl..

  • Juno

    Just saw the demo of ClyphX and it kicks arse. I am going to buy their LauchPad software – 'free' works again!

  • Zoopy

    "@zoopy: if you search the ableton user community forums Robert Henke wrote a thread about the problems that a native Midi LFO presents."

    wait,

    if it's possible in Max4Live, wouldn't it be possible without it? 

    I dont really care about midi, just have it link to the clip envelopes. 

  • http://regend.com Regend

    hmm…i might just wait until Live 9. i'm still in my relationship with Live 7 and i'm not about to break up with her.

  • http://institutfatima.org pepezabala

    ChlyphX is te shit. This is bringing Live to a completely different level. The snapshot functionalities allow you to create a clip-driven preset-system for your liveset. That's pure genius if you start to think about it. And there are so many other things possible suddenly … Sooner or later we will do our online banking with live-clips …

    And all the other posters are right, there are already many other parameter LFOs available for free, and many many other cool devices.

  • http://routeit.noisepages.com gbsr

    @pepezabala: well there is this famous live hack when someone hacked live to check his email, using the sessionview and the clips to display the topics – inbox style. :)

  • http://bubblescum.com Vaihe

    Nice if you own M4L

    Ableton REALLY needs to bring us M4L Runtime version.

    I don't want to buy expensive ad-on to run 8€ plugins.

  • http://www.institutfatima.org pepezabala

    @ Vaihe – M4L is an expensive add on to run hundreds of free plug ins. And you get Max MSP for free with the expensive add on. I thought it's a deal ;-)

  • http://www.rootsix.net boonier

    Why not try plogue bidule? Make an lfo of whatever flavour in it and connect it to one of the virtual midi ports. I've used it numerous times

  • http://noisepages.com/members/julienbayle/ Julien Bayle

    @all: thanks a lot for your feedbacks. it is precious for me.

    @boomer: involving virtual midi ports is nice, but complexity drives to bugs & problems. native (or 99% native) solutions should be preferred.

  • http://www,TweakingKnobs.com TweakingKnobs

    Feat ! but live should have a built in one…

    i mean… lfo´s , midi , music software, duh !

  • http://www.casimirsblake.co.uk Casimir's Blake

    Vaihe brings up a pertinent issue. I don't own M4L. Many Live users don't. Probably because we like to compose with the bloody thing, not sit there tweaking modules and coding.

    This is an impressive and, no doubt, powerful plugin and I'm glad to see someone has put something like this together. I could use it if I had M4L, but I don't. I have NO interest in M4L because I couldn't care less about creating my own "plugins". Racks are enough for me, otherwise I'm spending too much time looking and clicking and not enough time PLAYING KEYS. Or arranging, at least.

    Anyway, if there was – as others have suggested – an M4L runtime, this would alleviate the problem. But no, Ableton continue to be greedy and want to charge you full whack just to "run" M4L plugins. Bah!

  • bliss

    Ableton are not fully to blame. That's if there is anybody to blame to begin with.

    All of the arguments against buying M4L are stupid. There are plenty of free VSTs available, but you're going to have to buy a computer that has a compatible OS first. Then to download those plug-ins, you're going to have to buy a broadband subscription from a telecom or media company or broadband servicer. But you're also going to have to buy… Well, if you don't get at this point, never mind.

  • Random Chance

    Wow, this whole thing totally went past me without me noticing anything. I've seen Reaktor and Max patches you pay for, but Max4Live? It's a logical conclusion.

    Sometimes I think I should try to sell some of my own stuff but apart from not knowing how to do it without (gotta have some shop system) it's probably to great a hassle for little profit and you'll have to deal with customers that demand you help them along at each step of the way.

    I guess, we'll see a M4L runtime sooner or later. The current situation is like requiring Windows users to buy Visual Studio just to be able to run software written by third party vendors. It's probably a hard engineering problem that's prevented the release of a runtime so far. Plus, it's quite fair for a company that spent a whole lot of effort to bring something really cool about to recoup the cost of this extra engineering, or, in this case, two companies.

  • Peter Kirn

    Right, we have seen Reaktor and Max patches for sale, and that includes Reaktor patches *without* a runtime. (Only Max has the runtime.)

    I think the difference here is, we're getting a more vocal group who think it's a bad idea. On the other hand, there was only ever a small handful of people willing to buy Reaktor patches. It might even be a slightly *larger* handful amidst the protests here.

    Note that I said I thought easier distribution and a built-in LFO were a good idea; it's up to Ableton whether to actually do it. ;) An LFO would represent a significant architectural introduction to the tool. I'd generally like to see more of how Live could become more flexible; I don't know that the LFO is the place to start.

    The M4L runtime issue is fairly straightforward: to do so would mean losing the ability to edit patches. But that's also competition is healthy: Reaper and Renoise, as mentioned here, each take their own approach, and it's different in a number of ways.

  • Millford

    One absolutely necessary change to this patch is higher values in tempo sync. 1/32 at least. 1/4 just doesn't cut it. Otherwise it's just what I was looking for. Love it.

  • http://noisepages.com/members/julienbayle/ Julien Bayle

    @Millford: added to the wishlist!

  • http://dancerobotdance.com Brian Biggs

    Yeah I second the request for higher tempo syncs. I go to sleep dreaming about 1/16ths.

    A lot of crap being thrown at this topic. Feels like YouTube. Obviously one wouldn't buy M4L just to have a LFO. And obviously while some don't like tweaking and coding there are a lot of users who do. That's half of the creativity for me, at least. To open it up and play with the guts and see what else can be made. There are guitarists that modify their pickups, synth players that build modules, etc. If it weren't for the creativity of tweaking and coding, Ableton wouldn't exist in the first place, nor would this LFO.

    Charging for a device has no inherent problem. There's no where that says that one can't. It goes without saying that if someone is charging $15 for a LFO and it's not as good as those being given away, it's not gonna sell. I've downloaded 10+ LFOs to use with M4L and none of them have the features that this one does. My money is spent.

  • http://noisepages.com/members/julienbayle/ Julien Bayle

    @Brian Biggs: you just conclude the thread.

    so, I can now write something: I'll IMPROVE the beast asap!

    trust me :)

  • Edward

    @Julien

    I wouldn't quite say there is no support for open source, as an avid open source user and developer I released Device LFO (http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=354) on maxforlive.com in July and added the first feature that was requested (the ability to re-trigger the LFO).

  • Edward

    It is interesting that the first comment on this board is a reference to the Device LFO plugin I released on maxforlive.com since LFO everything steals code for the bpatcher module for persisting track/device/parameters with a live set lifted from my Device LFO which I posted on maxforlive.com under a non-commercial license @ http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=3… way back in July.   

    The creative commons license explicitly states:

    "This license lets others remix, tweak, and build upon your work non-commercially, and although their new works must also acknowledge you and be non-commercial, they don’t have to license their derivative works on the same terms."

    The bpatcher is identical, down to the module positions, font I use and the name of every single parameter based on the naming conventions I use when I develop M4L patches.   Asking for permission would have been the proper approach before you renamed the object and started to sell it with your patch; designing a LFO that controls Live was academic (which can be seen from the number of LFO's on maxforlive.com), the hard part was persisting the parameters with the live set in a reliable fashion.  I am not a big fan of selling m4l patches, especially where you are lifting code specifically from a device that is marked as non-commericial only.

  • http://noisepages.com/members/julienbayle/ Julien Bayle

    Edward, you're wasting your time here too.

    I didn't steal anything.

    I respect your anger.

    but please don't waste time with me.

    I'll refund you because I just saw you bought it too.

    take your way, I'm taking mine.

    I would have preferred to have a nice email from you, saying "hey man, I'm SO involved that I want to collaborate with you making a nicest LFO than the one you want to make"

    It would have been a pleasure to collaborate with you too.

  • Edward

    Or you could have emailed me before you lifted the code from a non-commercially licensed patch and asked me if it was ok to use it, I would have said yes.  

  • Peter Kirn

    I would ask that you please take this discussion off of CDM comments. It's not really the proper venue; you'll need to communicate between the two of you, I'm afraid. I was unaware of any dispute prior to it appearing here.

  • Dr Speed

    Well, it does indeed seem appear that code was commandeered, that's a shame. I suppose the temptation is great but it's still it's a shame. I've been using Device LFO for months.

  • stringtapper

    I can confirm that the subpatches for LFO Everything and Device LFO that contain the mechanism for choosing tracks/devices/parameters are virtually identical. I purchased Julien's device and I don't want a refund or anything, but his attitude in the face of pretty clear evidence that he's selling someone else's code has been pretty bad over on the Abes' M4L forum. He just needs to give Edward Majcher credit for that bit of code and I think this could all be resolved. Like I said, I still value what he's done with the device whether the code is all his and I'm ok that I paid for it, just give the other guy credit (and an apology at this point). 

  • 23fx

    I did an equivalent using usine and liveOsc,

    but i suffer from a max precision of 60ms

    that seem limit from remote python scripts.

    or i wonder if it's live Api limit.

    Anybody know

    what's max pecision MFL can acces a live deviceparameter real time? is it free of jitter and latency? is it 60ms, or <?

  • http://www.facebook.com/aaron.zilch Aaron Zilch

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned Max Fuel by Pure Magnetic, which in addition to an LFO features a few other often requested Ableton features: universal sidechaining (though there is now sort of a secret, non-realtime but editable, workaround for this using the Groove feature ), universal macro knobs and some other goodies. A lot pricier total, but cheaper on a per-plug basis.

    AFA the whole native LFO in Ableton issue and the problems Robert Henke points out (thanks so much to pointing me to that post BTW, fascinating to get a look into his skull), I have a bit of an idea. How about a feature in the Clip Envelope Editor to automatically print common shapes ( and hopefully not so common, love the LFO selection in Malstrom for example ) at a desired rate. Also include the ability to double or half the speed of individual clip envelopes. Or maybe some features along the lines of Massive's "Performer". Select a time frame, shape, and speed and then print it to the clip envelope. I think Clip envelopes are more powerful in certain ways than LFO's, but LFO's are so much better for quick gratification experimentation. Having more options for creating Clip Envelopes than drawing them in by hand or copy and pasting could help bridge the gap a bit.

    And of course I know that still would mean copy and pasting if you wanted to control parameters from multiple tracks and you still couldn't play with the speed in realtime, but it would still be a step in a nice direction without opening a can of worms.

    And then maybe we could get the tasty filters and AM/FM from Sampler as effects units too. ;-)

  • Jon Starr

    The thing this one brings to the table that the Puremagnetik ell Effo from the Max Fuel set can't do is the cropping of your drawn in waveforms. You can have the LFO Everything grab however much of what you've drawn in as you want in real time and change it without losing sync. It just means I can make more complicated evolving modulations in real time without having to rely on prepared automation. 

  • Seppe

    Dear Peter,

    I'm sorry to bring this up again, but I'm really worried about the license issues for this device. Julien seems to respond really badly to questions about this on the Ableton Live forums. I know you care a lot about licensing, so I think it would be a shame if you were promoting something that infringes an existing open source license.

  • salamanderanagram

    @peter, i agree with seppe, his comments refuse to own up to the fact that several people have noticed an improbable number of similarities with previously released code.

    an update would probably be in order at the least.

  • jason

    an article about an LFO??? logic's environment has had these for ages…plus there is reaktor which has tons of lfos. am i missing something?

  • http://dancerobotdance.com Brian Biggs

    jason, you mention LFO in Logic and Reaktor. If you read the article it's about Live, not Logic. For various technical reasons, Live hasn't had one built in and using one via VST or AU through Reaktor has been flaky at best.

  • Edward

    Does Reaktor have access to the live api for manipulating midi data and devices?

  • 23fx

    edward, sorry to bump but you are one that may know, what's max speed you can access to liveApi , for ex, a parameter, in Hz or ms of shorter pulse? and what latency? ie such lfo.

    i would really need to know. thanx

    (what's fastest clock of non audio communications keeping stable)

  • Edward

    You can access it in hz and pulse, but I found that you couldn't manipulate a parameter via the live api much higher then 250 hz without the CPU starting to explode (which is why I limit the update rate in my Device LFO to 100hz, just to have some headroom for slower machines).  At slower rates, sync'd to the clock it also seems to keep perfect time. 

    I found the real problem interacting with the live api is the order of operations things occur in max in relation to events in live when loading song/live set. Often I had to defer live api operations as much as possible with loading a live set because the live set had not been fully initialized and i would get bogus or null values.  There is no guarantee that the live set has fully loaded when max patches are starting to get initialized.

  • 23fx

    thx a lot man!

  • http://æ.cun y

    yay

    this time Peter shit on his own foot…bloody hilarious !

  • http://æ.cun y

    julien…go sell bananas

  • http://æ.cun y

    actually…I will go on on this a bit longer.

    Peter…you are the dirtiest of the hypocrits here.

    1st shame :

    first you publish this article WITHOUT checking the ableton forum and without knowing ehat is really going on..very naive and very umprofessionale EDITOR attitude…if I was your publisher you would be fired yesterday.

    second (even smellier) shame :

    once the shit start to spread all over the place and this RIP OFF shines in all its splendour…you invite the ppl to resolve thier issues privatly and not on your pages….your pages that so blatantly advertize STOLEN work.

    instead I reckon that we should give to this issue the LOUDEST publicity.

    bottom line…both you and mr Julien lost credibility…and you smell.

  • http://æ.cun y

    give back CDM its missing credibility…check twice before advertizing another gimmick.

  • David A

    Why is this thieving scumbag's commercial device being promoted here ? In the interest of honesty, righteousness, community and common decency this article should be pulled lest his pockets be further lined with ill-gotten gain.

  • Peter Kirn

    I stand behind my handling of the situation:

    I didn't have all the facts.

    Misunderstandings do sometimes occur between creators.

    I'm not advertising anything; I'm writing up a tool that appeared to be of interest. 

    Jumping to conclusions would immediately compromise my integrity. 

    I don't find the open criticism of me to be fair or civil. I'm leaving the comments; I believe your tone speaks for itself.

    But yes, do I write about things without checking every subpatcher for possible infringement of someone else's work? Yes, I do. Give me a break.

  • David A

    I don't think "Y" or anyone else who may have questioned your credibility here in the comments is doing so from the period of time where you weren't to know. I see what you mean about "jumping to conclusions" in that timeframe.

    But now the facts are out, and are clear. Yet you still, effectively, promote the device here by giving it a popular platform despite being fully aware that Julien Bayle is the worst kind of Intellectual Property thief and handled his outting as such woefully to put it mildly.

    And that certainly is worthy of questioning your credibility, and in all likeliness is probably the point where "Y" is coming from if not worded explicitly as such.

    Julien Bayle didn't handle it right when he was caught, and now, journalistically (is that a word?) speaking, you aren't either.

  • Peter Kirn

    I believe that maintaining my credibility is important, which is why I'm not rushing to post a second story. I'm sorry you feel that way. I disagree, and it's my call. I've learned the hard way in the last six years, but I can't recall *any* instance where I found discretion or patience was something I regretted.

    I was very much unaware that there was any controversy around this issue as I posted this story. So yes, it's very likely that I – unknowingly – did damage to the whole situation by posting the story.

    I do not agree that rushing to post a second story is the wise move, precisely because it could do more damage before I've lined up the facts.

    Edward and Julien are artists. Each of them contacted me independently, off-list.

    I continue to communicate with them. When it's appropriate, I'll post an update. Before that, I won't. I'm not looking to pour gasoline one what is already a volatile situation. If people want to sling mud, they can do that on the forum.

    That information is already out there and available; it's my obligation to either add responsibly to the conversation or say nothing at all.

    I don't know if it's the "journalistically" right thing to do, but it's what I believe is the right thing to do, so it's what you're getting.

  • Peter Kirn

    Also, news flash: once something is published, it's published. It's inappropriate under most circumstances I think to *unpublish* something.

    I appreciate David and others at least providing frank opinions and not simply (cough) trolling as some commenters are.

    y isn't "questioning" my credibility; y is trolling, and I don't put much weight behind those kinds of comments.

  • David A

    I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

    I won't argue in defense of "Y", I just offered my view on where they were potentially coming from.

    But to clarify – my suggestion was to simply delete this post. Bury it in some kind of sin bin. Remove it from the front page. Etc.

    But if you don't want to "unpublish" it then I would suggest, for the sake of credibility, to edit the story (as you have done on SO many other occassions when new info comes to light in the comments) to explicitly reflect the controversy and point readers in the direction of the M4L/Ableton.com threads where the issue is fully hashed out.

    That is where I, personally, think your credibility is now lacking as a journalist and as a member of the audio community who claims to support open source initiatives etc.

    Otherwise leaving the article as it is, unedited (unusually), on the front page, still serves as valuable and lucrative advertisement for someone who patently doesn't deserve it.

    Regards

  • David A

    Well excuse me, it seems you've already done that.

    But I'd prefer to see the edit in the first half of the story where it can be read from the front page.

    I guess beggars can't be choosers though

    Regards,

    A disgusted patron of open source communities.

  • Peter Kirn

    I updated the story the moment these issues came to light.

    This isn't an "open source" issue; it's an issue of proper attribution, period. 

    I'm not going to say anything else, because I'll sound defensive; I probably already sound that way. You're entitled to your opinion.

  • http://æ.cun y

    lol…mr Kirn…you are not the one who can put periods to this story…period.

    and we won't give you a break either…period.

    if you want a break…you need to lock it…let's see if you have the face to do that…and shit on your other foot.

    i am trolling…yes…indeed…and i see more dignity in trolling than your patetic self defence…very similar in the attitude to the one of the thief.

    give us a break PK..

    like Julian said..peace…and paypal.

    read my lips

  • http://æ.cun y

    you not rushing in writing a second story..but you rush like hell to be the FIRST one to give the FIRST story…

    credibility…yes..

    this days I browse this pages like I do with adverts…i look at the picts…i check the links…and I go and get some CREDIBLE objective information about the real value of the product SOMEWHERE else.

    big up

  • David A

    Yes I noticed too late that you updated the story. I'm still loathe to see the article though. That's no reflection on you, just utterly disgusted by the behaviour of Julien Bayle. So I apologise if I seem to be assigning some of this negativity to you.

    However I do think it is an "open source" issue. Julien Bayle harvested code from an open source project/device. Not only did he harvest the code but he took efforts to delete the original author's name from the device. Than he went about selling his own device which contained this code. That totally undermines the community from which he harvested the code in the first place. It jeopardises the sharing culture if people fear that, despite using licenses which explicitly forbid it, what they share will be harvested for commercial patches. Which is a debate in itself.

    Julien Bayle's behaviour here, from the crime itself to his handling of it coming to light, has been despicable from start to finish.

    He has done more than enough to damage the M4L community.

  • Peter Kirn

    @y: If you continue to troll on this thread, your comments will be deleted. You've been warned.

    I write these stories and these comments under my real name, not anonymously. And I run the site. So, actually, yes – I do get to decide when the conversation ends. Sorry.

  • http://www.tete-de-son.com/ Crampe

    Hey people, gives Live its missing ClipAutomation.
    Patch and details are [url

  • Crampe