Photo (CC-BY-SA) bdu.

Electronic music has always had a funny relationship with musicianship. It isn’t playing a traditional instrument; instead, it lies somewhere between instrumentalism and composition, between playing and conducting. Sometimes, that scale is tipped away from virtuosity of any kind.

But lately, I’ve had an increasing number of conversations with people who make the tools with which we make music about what this all means. I’ll be able to share one of those conversations in a bit, but I’m curious to hear what readers think.

Computers are fairly open-ended devices, so let’s take the familiar drum machine. What constitutes virtuosity? We’ve seen showy videos on YouTube – indeed, the presence of a community like YouTube is an invitation for challenge-style oneupmanship from drum machinists. But there are many forms of technical skill in live performance, some showier than others. At what point does a drum machine performance become musical performance? What elements, specifically, allow that to happen?

What examples have inspired you? (YouTube videos here.) How have you resolved these challenges in your own work? Or have you resolved it? I’ll leave that question with you over the weekend. Have a good one.

Next week I’ll have another take on this question, as well; stay tuned.

After seeing Dave Cross’ post on showmanship, I will editorialize just in regards to the question:

Musicianship has only recently become primarily concerned with whether people are watching. In fact, most musical traditions from Balinese wedding music to music for religious purposes to dance music (square dance? tango?) isn’t necessarily watched intently. I would also question just how entertaining it is to watch musicians even in the classical tradition. Expression it seems may be more complex than what you see, coming down to whether on an emotional, physical level there’s a connection between what you’re doing and what’s heard, whether anyone is watching or not. (And since virtuosity requires endless practice, by definition, a lot of it is something you do alone – so you’d better be comfortable without an audience at least some of the time.) I’m curious to see if others agree and if that tempers your answer.

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И потому мне важно принять во внимание ваше мнение.
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A drummer cannot be a "Virtuoso" I know there's extreme drummers like Marco Minneman, but to be a Virtuoso you have to be the best concert performer and have extreme!!! technical ability such as ultra fast wide interval arpeggios, and flawless staccato and legato techniques. Can play Paganini, Jason Becker, Bach, Scriabin by ear precisely as it's heard. 

That's why they are named Virtuoso's because There basically extinct! 

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OK, Duchamp. Very interesting guy, a few years ago I was lucky enough to see an exhibition of his paintings, installations and kinectic sculptures. I would certainly not think of him as a "curator" (correct me if I'm misinterpreting you, Lindsay), because his life's work is a combination of creative process and artistic authorship (installations, sculptures, early paintings) with his anti-establishment interventions and explorations of concepts - like his chance music conceptual experiments (i'm assuming you're referring to those); but these were not art and probably that wasn't even his intention - the chance music drafts were purely philosophical and conceptual works, possibly a direct result of his interest in physics and mathematics. Authorship/performance and the human element are diluted and nullified in randomized music produced by a mechanical device - the results can hardly be art and are surely not performance. I can take credit for an equation /algorithm that automatically produces random notes, but I can never honestly take credit for the music that is created by that device, since it exists without any further human intervention on my part.

@Lindsay

"It could be argued that curation is ALL that artmaking is today."

No it couldn't.

Artmaking is creative process, conception, and/or performance.

Curating is simply the act of presenting / displaying artworks to the public.

i.e. an art gallery owner / curator is not a painter/sculptor/photograher/digital artist/etc,; a book editor selecting and publishing a collection of essays / literary works is not an author;

a DJ playing vinyl records in a club is NOT a composer or performing musician.

Equating "curating" with "art making" devalues art. Curation is not as creative as artmaking because it is merely a vehice for bringing art works to an audience. These days, it has become socially acceptable for some types of "curators" to call themselves artists, in order to blur the lines and boost their status, but saying "I am an artist" does not make you one - especially if you haven' created / performed anything yourself.

@zeroreference

"relatedly, is a dj a curator? can curation be as creative as the traditional model of artmaking?"

It could be argued that curation is ALL that artmaking is today. Using this paradigm in relation to electronics and performance could be useful.

This thread have def got me thinking.

I went away and really thought about what I was trying to achieve and think that I have it worked out.

For example, I sit down on the ESX and pull together all my samples etc and rough out a sound set that can make up a track. Then using the ESX I create the track in song mode. During the course of this Song process I end up with heaps of patterns. Then I can save some of those patterns elsewhere on the ESX, erase the pattern data but keep the sounds. Then I can do an improvised Live jam using the sounds that made up some of the track written in song mode.

This way I can play the ESX as an instrument in anyway I feel at the time.

I have done this with one pattern set I have been working on and it is a great way to play with a track on a machine like the ESX.

So thanks Peter for this thread. It came at the right time for me and helped trip me over a threshold standing in my way.

Peter I would like to see more articles like this.

@substrain...

hmm...

i think you're clouding the point with musical taste... absolutely the "actual result" is most important... but, we're talking about "virtuosity"...

besides, the "actual result" is a non discussion, as no one could ever agree what the "result" was...

as for a sporting competition...

pfffff

@edison: "sticking to traditions makes no new noise"

I think ultimately "new sounds" or virtuosity matter less than the actual results. Unless you look at it like a sporting competition.

@paul

just saying...

if the pad is triggering something that was recorded and done well/shitty... how is it any different? shure... youre not playing that instrument at that time.... but you are using the recording of said performance...

what if the performance FOR the recording was virtuosic AND the performance of the recorded material is virtuosic...???

like yoyoma jumping onna MPC and killing shit...

whew.... haha

i think that the good thing about instruments of today, is they can blur this line between production/performance...

they are still in infancy, but likely, performance and production in and of themselves will follow suit...

i think this whole disscussion is awesome, because none of these lines have been defined yet...

as for Brian Peter George St. John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno... dude was an innovator, in the day he probably would have flipped shit onna grid controller... and made some epic snoozer atmospheres....

i just mean... nothing has to be traditional to make noise, and sticking to traditions makes no new noise...

@crashproof: i don't think that being a virtuoso was ever necessary to be an astounding musician. jazz is ripe with both - people like art tatum who were virtuosos on the piano, and those like monk who just had some way to make music that nobody else could do. tatum's music sounded like his own but less so than monk who was just uttterly iconoclastic. wynton marsalis is one of the most virtuosic trumpet players ever, but i find his music boring compared to "lesser" horn players (e.g. mark isham, or even miles davis).

@edison: being a virtuoso performer is an entirely different thing from being a brilliant composer, even if some people are good at both.

as for the pad/fretboard distinction: if you are using the pad so that pressure/velocity/edge detection alters the sound generated by the hit, then not much. but if you're not, then its all the difference in the world.

to recite an eno quote that i use too much: "a good instrument has qualities that the body can learn, and the mind cannot". an array of pads sort of meets that goal, but as fully as i think eno was intended when he said that.

"... how you hit a pressure-sensitive pad is not, as far as i can tell, playing much if any role in the sound production process i’m seeing."

the sounds themselves need to be produced and composed... the button hitting is the culmination of the processes... whats the difference between a pad and a fretboard??

I've been an electronic musician for a while now, but recently joined Saint Louis Osuwa Taiko.  We consider the visual aspect of a performance to be *more* important than the sound.  Hitting notes in time with proper dynamics would be relatively easy, but we also have to look awesome and synchronized while doing it.  It's really kind of a dance that looks like martial arts and sounds like drumming.

This is a huge contrast to tweaking in software and sampling acoustic bits, or even the casual hand percussion, wind and theremin stuff I take up occasionally.

I don't really concern myself with virtuosity in electronic music (other than watching good thereminists; Pamelia Kurstin is a genius).  For the most part it strikes me the same way as a programmer who concerns themselves with their touch typing speed -- kind of neat but irrelevant.  I guess if you can put on a better show, more power to you.  One way or another, it's results that matter.

Kind of a side thing:  was Thelonious Monk, with all his weird uneven style (and apparently, inability to perform some of his own songs without recording multiple takes) a virtuoso?  Or does that status require technical precision?

@ Paul Davis

i hadnt really thought about it that way but i'd have to agree with you. to add to that point the majority of mpc style drum machine performers dont use the Velocity sensitivity let alone the pressure sensitivity.

but for anyone who wanted some more youwastemytimetube videos

Dizz1 form Australia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCeS-ws0npk

Exile and DJ Day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WUIMy2mtYM&amp......

Damu The Fudgemunk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRpLjEaqxs

Equalibrium's live looping video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE7GHgbmlP0&amp......

Knock Squared
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8DT2bhX1w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LZoUQpFpxg

another thing to consider is how many of these MPC/drum machine performers are skilled primarily in the sense of timing, rather than expression. they get mad beatz from their fingertips, but all they need to do for that to "work" is to be on time. how you hit a pressure-sensitive pad is not, as far as i can tell, playing much if any role in the sound production process i'm seeing.

sorry if anyone's pulled this out yet but justin aswell is a killa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jLWHKS02LI

i can't recall if i've mentioned this distinction on CDM before, but ... i think that a lot of commentary above misses a distinction that we used to make very clearly: the orchestra and the conductor. when i watch the various videos posted here of guys running beatboxes, what i'm struck by mostly is how little work the human does compared to the machine. but that's nothing new: the conductor does very little compared to the musicians in an orchestra, certainly not during the actual performance. but the conductor does (to a limited extent) select the performers, defines the tonal qualities that are being strived for, controls timing and so on.

the people are "good" at playing machines that can basically play themselves strike me as very much like a "virtuoso", but in the sense of a virtuoso conductor, not a virtuoso on a particular instrument.

its an odd reframing, perhaps, but sometimes you need to imbue the machine with as much humanity as it has power and view it as something closer to an orchestra. the human is not the musician, the human is the conductor of all that noise-making potential, and directs it to his/her own ends.

Reminds me of the somewhat contentious "take it to the stage" thread (in topic only - that one got kind of heated).

A virtuosity can be developed around any objet with affordances, whether a hubcap or a sax. But first, some questions...

If you listen to a recording of a virtuoso, are you experiencing a virtuoso performance? What if that recording were being played from a stage with an audience of hundreds of people seated listening? Does the presence of the audience negate the magic of the peperformance encoded in the recording without the performer's presence?

Many electronic music devices only became instruments when people decided to start messing with them.

Drum machines and sequencers in particular, weren't invented with performance affordancces in mind. Rather, in many cases, they were born to remove them, to be autonomous by very definition. Only later were their hubcap-like affordances exploited for tapping, strumming studdering trigger-phreaking. Even later, the machines actually included performance features: velocity pads, break buttons, part modes, beat latching, tempo tapping, etc.

But when the audience starts from a place of skepticism regarding how much technology is responsible for what they are hearing, the electronic musician can find him/herself in the unfortunate position of having to win them back into positive territory, passing thru zero along the way. A player picking up a sax doesn't have that baggage to deal with. Thus the great hand-wringing over a the simple question of "how do I make sure the audience knows a performance is happening?" - a question that was once easily answered by simply walking on stage.

Also, I really like that @jonah brought up singing. Playing and vocalizing at the same time immediately ups the ante in a performance (if you can make it work).

As Brian Eno said, "art is a trigger for experience." If what you're doing works the audience will let you know.

@Josh

araabMUZIK is raw! I think I find him so exciting because there's a sympathy between his perfomance technique (banging out one shots) and the music itself - it sounds like machine music (don't hold me to what that is!), i.e. he's not trying to play drums on a MPC. I can't get that Edison vid to load on vimeo....

@BirdsUseStars

What you're saying reminds of the idea (which I'm for) that instrument designers now are composers, or something like that.

@Roger Linn

Interesting! Playing with yourself always sounded less exciting to me than, well, playing with someone else, but now you're playing with clones! :) Seriously, that is an insightful take on electronic performance. 

Also, yeah, how about that drum machine :)?

Peter, great thread! I think the level of interest is showing you that there's a hunger to talk more about the theoretical/human aspects of digital music, in addition to the technology. Whoever mentioned a forum had a good idea...what a knowledge base...though there's something 'performative' about comment threads - maybe a fancier indexing/thread search system so users could browse around old threads?

@Gavin@FAW

I side with DanWilcox's camp on this one - and I believe people like Caribou change their live performance setup to improve the performance experience. Other examples I can think of include Ben Frost and Fennesz, who base a lot of their sound on electronic manipulations of guitar sounds. They're currently touring with 3 piece bands and combining live guitar with loops and electronic manipulations, adding more improvisation and unexpected variations on their music. I think that's awesome.

"I know a lot of electronic musicians get frustrated when they see other electronic musicians change the way the music is created just to satisfy an audiences need for a traditional performance."

One of the most disappointing evenings of my life happened 5 years ago when I went to see a Murcof "concert". I like his music, but was extremely annoyed, after paying my ticket, that his performance consisted on him standing in a darkened stage behind a single laptop. I could not tell the difference between the music coming out of the speakers at the venue and the music I had been listening on my own speakers at home. For all I know, he was playing pre-recorded tracks and checking their volumes.

Audiences, even non-"traditional" ones, can get frustrated when faced with situations like this. When you get on a stage, your job is to satisfy your audience (and enjoy yourself, of course).

"must focus on the music, not the show is a cheap way out of not working to present a live show"

Not so sure about this. I know alot of electronic musicians get frustrated when they see other electronic musicians change the way the music is created just to satisfy an audiences need for a traditional performance.

Take Caribou for example, it does seem like that once he became famous and was encountering a more main stream audience that he switched from being a one man show to a full band. Was this to satisfiy preconceived ideas of what a performance should mean? Was this a good thing?

I'm firmly in the "if you're playing live, you are performing" camp. There are aspects of your performance you must take account of when playing live and saying people must focus on the music, not the show is a cheap way out of not working to present a live show. If you are an acousmatic musician, and fervently against the live aesthetic, then why even bother to play live?

We all know the audience-performer feedback is one of the greatest elements during a show and those who don't utilize it better have amazing music that speaks for itself ... I'm not saying everyone has to do the rockstar thing, just be mindful that there is a lot of work and practice in a live presentation, for the sake of showgoers please please put some effort into it or don;t bother and put up your albums online. 

I'm late for this thread, but just wanted to say I'm an Electribe man, and when I play live I start with an empty pattern, and build up from there. Ephemeral music. I don't have a theoretical dogma over this, I just found that I have the most fun doing it this way. And it has the plus that you can adapt to the audience and venue, more dancey, more IDM, faster, slower, harder, softer. Improvising is what I really dig. ANd off course, you have to know your instrument really well. Anyone in the same line here?

I think this is virtuosity on a drum machine. Have you seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGoUsLzd-Ik

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@blob  A drum machine, being a musical instrument is also an integral part of musical creativity, as any tool is. 

Interestingly the one in the picture above is claiming to be a "composer".

Woops, I guess that edison vid is all one shots!

Can anyone provide a video link to someone who just triggers one hit samples, instead of loops? I'd like to see some MPC jamming like that... seems to me..Edison, Jel, Jeff Mills etc are all manipulating the way loops are launched...maybe not ALL the time, but are definitely relying on a machine to play out rhythms...where's the sample based live drummin? I want to see some live autechre beats played with fingers, or something. 

Not gonna lie, there is nothing more impressive than araabmuzik on the MPC. Dude can tap like none other.

(lots of typos and grammar mistakes caused by quick typing, my apologies for that)

@BirdsUseStars

No quite, sorry but I have to disagree. If we rely on that definition, then you'll find you can only apply "virtuosity" to the composing process and not the "performance". A "virtuoso" (whether an electronic or "non-electronic" musician) should be able to do more than merely mechanically reproducing a composer's work - he/she should be able to lend it his/her personal touch and possibly take the musical piece beyond its original intentions, without betraying its spirit. It is impossible to reach this level of performative artistry do if one simply relies on pre-programmed sequences. A drum machine is just a contraption that electronically/mechanically reproduces sounds - nothing more, nothing less. Its up to an electronic musician / virtuoso to break that mold and raise the bar. If I write an electronic piece in a sequencer and you present it to an audience it merely by pressing the play button and checking volumes without affecting its structural, melodic, rhythmical and spectral contents, then you are not performing, or at least not 100%. It will sound accurate (i.e. an exact reproduction of the composition) but it will not be a performance, because it will lack expression, improvisation and emotional content that comes from direct musical manipulation that comes naturally for acoustic musicians but is more difficult with electronic media.

All of this to say that a virtuoso is not just a tool, he/she is an integral part of live creativity. Funnily enough, this concept of thinking about musicians as "tools" and "vessels" for the composer's creativity might have partly been inherited by the western classical tradition (especially 18th-19th century) where the non-performing composer was absolute and performers were akin to factory workers... but even then there was room for dynamic and emotional expression to be attributed to notes on a musical sheet. Anyway, that would probably be a broader discussion about what music performance in general is all about...

Well, a virtuoso is someone who makes themselves into a tool to channel the most accurate possible representation of a composers creative expression. I'd say the drum machine itself is the virtuoso. 

just my 2 cents on the discussion of MPC just being memorisation, can't remember who said it. surely it's exactly the same as a piano. if you play a key on a piano you hear a note. if you play the same key again on a piano you hear the same note. an MPC is exactly the same, you hit a pad you hear a sound. also, you hit a key on a piano harder or softer you can hear the difference, an MPC (with velocity sensitive pads of course) does exactly the same. all a piano player is doing when they play a piece memorising a piece of music, or playing from a musical score, both of which an MPC performer will or could do. in fact, how about we write a score for an MPC performer with full dynamics, articulation marks and ornaments?

+1 Jeff Mills. His DJ and performance skills are stunning, a true artist.

@zeroreference

Sorry, I used the word "hacking" in a very broad sense, i.e "breaking" the machine in unexpected ways - unconventional programming on the fly, "misuse" of parameters, connections and controllers, etc. Maybe actual hardware hacking could also be included? ;-)

I think electronic musicians, after all these decades, are still struggling o find their place as live performers and most are still not quite there yet - myself included, when I use my MIDI keyboard controller to play synths and samples it is a direct musical affair like it is for other musicians; but when I'm just manipulating loops it is very detached and limited. In any case, I think controller device technology is starting to catch up on these needs - and this will soon bring us to a situation where straightforward sequencing of loops and tracks will not be considered enough to qualify as a full live performance. It will carry live electronic music away from abstraction and probably force many electronic performers to be confronted with their musical limitations. Fine be me, that's what evolution is all about.

Anyway, great thread. I'm looking forward to see more comments!

@edison
http://www.vimeo.com/7733666
!!!!

awesome perf, really impressive.

I wish lives were more performed

in front of facade sound rather than on stage. first for performer it's much more enjoyable than rambling returns monitors with delayed infra bass of main system,  hearing the real sound, loud, same as  people hear, then people can enjoy and watch the performance from much closer,

and it does add a lot to the magic feel of real communication between artist and audience, and potentially push up the artist

for more 'virtuose' performmances rather than presequenced stuff. at least i did feel that a lot personally, once performing wirelessly  with a custom build controller made by wiimote and xbox pad in front of 10kw in middle of people, so much more enjoyable than trying to hear my stuff from behind the soundsystem with no clues if people enjoy or not.

As for the virtuosity.. I think anyone seeing a virtuoso performing should be able to identify him as such, regardless of the instrument played. Virtuosity, to me, is about mastering an instrument, nothing more.

Nice thread going on there, we could easily use a true CDM forum!

I think the most important thing about drum machines is that they introduce us to meta-music in live performances, in which a movement made by the performer won't always have as a direct consequence in sound. Few people see simple queuing of sounds as an interesting performance, because you'll hardly keep focused on someone that could really be doing nothing at all. As a result, actions like bank changes, assigning controls, which are more part of the music production process, should be reduced to the minimum to allow greater communication between the audience and the performer. In electronic music, with such a detachment. It's all about having the people "believing" you're the one doing all that fuss. That is why you need to introduce seemingly "natural" sound triggering (tweaking a knob, hitting a drumpad) to make a live performance look like one. That's where to me resides the interest of the monome used with mlr. I think it has achieved a great compromise between strong construction potential with pattern recordings and loops queueing, minimal non-musical actions, and have at the same time true expressive possibilities through playback position change, with a strong "what you see is what you hear" correlation (lights indicating playback position are also buttons that you press to trigger the sound)

This is what i've tried to achieve combining the monome with more classical fader, knobs and buttons control.

http://vimeo.com/17815453

Good job Peter, look at how many posts you got off this one.

Like em or hate em .. deep down we all love drum machines.

The soul is not in the machine it is translated through it and out the speakers. A drum machine as they are made today are no less an instrument than a piano or a guitar. The human voice is the ultimate musical instrument and as of yet cannot be matched by an electronic device.

Just so all of you know virtuosity cannot be possible unless there is a possibility of mistakes, so we define it by what can go wrong. Some of the things that can go wrong are timing, pitch, and failure to engage your audience.

Now I'm going to go give my Electribe some love.

Wow...finally a discussion that really goes in deep.  A lot of people are sharing their opinions here, that's fantastic.

I think, as far as audiences go, they need to see a direct connection between a musicians real-time intention to affect sound through creation or modification.

A ratio is set up.  How much change do they hear in the world of sound vs. how much intentional action do they see on behalf of the performer.  Traditional acoustic instruments like cello or trumpet are almost 1:1.  When you get into something like drumming on pads unaccompanied, you are still pretty darn close, but things start to tip the ration once you have samples that contain audible changes.  For example, lots of MPC tappers are hitting samples that are not just individual drum hits or chops of sound, but bits of rhythmic stuff like drum paradiddles and shuffles, even loops.  It takes extra coordination to hit pads with rhythmic snippets and keep time, so my hat goes off to these kind of performers.

The more complicated the gear gets, the further you will stretch this ratio.  A TR-909 is great because the performer can tap out a pattern in real-time, then ,like a shaman, control a dancing crowd by altering crucial sound parameters, muting and revealing sounds, building and stripping layers of percussion, etc.  Can you tell I'm a huge Jeff Mills fan?  As far as truly famous Roland drum machine improvisors, I guess it comes down to him and Richie Hawtin, who will also do similar things on a TR-808.

I'd say someone is a virtuoso when the entire range of performable functions of an instrument are within the users immediate command for the purpose of expression of at least one emotion on a scale of 0-99% intensity. 100% would involve destruction of the device, either unintentionally due to overplaying or intentionally due frustration with the device's limitations.  The act of becoming so emotional on stage that I would destroy a synthesizer or drum machine is something I'd like to experience in this life.

Addendum - count me as another person looking forward to the LInn/DSI collaboration in the "drum machine" realm...

@roger linn - well said!!!

@rondema - your most recent post sums it all up.

This is a fantastic thread...hopefully after decompressing from work and spending some quality time with Maschine I'll be able to contribute something more to this conversation other than some (well-deserved) pats on the back....cheers to all!!!