Max for Live, in action: a graphical programming environment inside Ableton Live. Photo (CC-BY-ND) akihiko.japan

Max for Live, now into its second year, is a tool with an ambitious goal: take the custom music software creation, visual-patch-programming powers of Max/MSP, and put them inside live performance and production host Ableton Live. It’s not the only tool that allows you to hack your own instruments and effects, or customize how your music tool works – several hosts now offer scripting and patching options. But it’s both unique in its depth and breadth, and paired with the tool most popular with musicians for playing live, which puts it in a league of its own.

I personally like tools I feel are worth criticizing, and I think Max for Live fit that description. Members of the passionate Ableton and Max/MSP communities, perhaps most of all those who embraced Max for Live in their workflow, had some ideas of their own.

This week, Ableton is releasing the first batch of significant, non-bug-fix improvements to Max for Live since its release. You can try them right now in the just-unleashed 8.2.2 beta.

It’s not just about what Ableton is doing differently, though. Recently, Ableton also unveiled a set of guidelines for people making their own patches, with the hope of raising the bar and making patch publishing clearer and easier.

Daniel Büttner of Ableton offers his thoughts to CDM, including improvements to the Live API and the new “production guidelines” for people building Max for Live patches. It’s a detailed read, but I know we’ve got some hard-core patchers out there who will appreciate it. Daniel writes:

Max for Live has been around for over one year. As the community grew and produced more devices, we noticed the obvious weak points that every programmer was trying to work around, such as keeping parameter mappings intact.

A few months back, after Live 8.2 was released, we started working more closely with programmers in the community, listened to their problems and evaluated lots of devices. The two main issues we ran into were 1) limitations in the software that made it difficult to create reliable devices and 2) certain knowledge to program devices that work well in Live.

Top item on the list was the handling and persistency of mappings from a Max device to any Live parameter, which required clumsy workarounds. From what I have seen, the new persistent Ids allow programmers to reduce their Max code in a typical LFO by 60%.

live.object and live.remote~ now have an option “Save Mapping in Live Set” (Fig. 1)

Fig. 1: Save Mapping in Live Set better integrate Max for Live with your Live sets – a must for live performers, production.

Another improvement allows Max devices to observe the selected_parameter in Live via [live.path live_set view selected_parameter]. Max programmers can now build an intuitive Map mode into their devices (see example code below) or follow the user’s selection, which may be useful for certain hardware integration.

The Live API can now reach inside racks, so LFOs can be grouped with Live effects and saved as a preset.

Fig. 2: “This device” is a new Max object that makes it easy to design actions around a patch being opened.

A small feature that doesn’t show up in the changelog is a new Max object called live.thisdevice (Fig. 2):

“live.thisdevice reports two pieces of information about your Max Device. A bang message is automatically sent from the leftmost outlet when the Max Device is opened and completely initialized, or when the containing patcher is part of another file that is opened. Additionally, a bang will be reported every time a new preset is loaded or the device is saved (and thus reloaded within the Live application). A 1 or 0 will be sent from the rightmost outlet when the Device is enabled or disabled, respectively. Used within Max, live.thisdevice functions essentially like the loadbang object. The rightmost outlet is inactive in this case.”

The [live.thisdevice] helps timing in large devices to avoid sending values before the API has been initialized, etc.

Besides technical improvements to the software, we also want to share our knowledge with Max programmers to avoid common errors such as devices spilling into Live’s undo history or not recalling parameters correctly in a Live Set.

We’ve created a set of guidelines as a result of our own experience and known issues, a long evaluation of community devices, discussions with patch programmers.

Ableton Max for Live production guidelines [Ableton Forum]

I hope that everyone updates their existing Max for Live devices and takes advantage of these improvements as they make MfL devices a lot more reliable and fun to use.

The Production Guidelines offer lots of good ideas, including “pre-flight” checklists for technical details and presentation draw from months of experience with patches, compatibility notes for Mac and Windows, device latency, mapping, and the like. In fact, even if you don’t plan to distribute your work, it’s a great read.

Speaking of Guidelines, What About Licenses?

One issue Ableton have not handled is licensing of patches. This is likely a good topic for another article, but I can summarize my own recommendations, having talked to a range of developers and people familiar with open source software policy.

I would strongly endorse putting some sort of license document in your patches. The most important first step is, whatever your intentions for how your work is used, put it in writing. Legal agreements all begin with simply writing down what you mean; it’s when there’s an absence of information that misunderstandings most often arise. That doesn’t have to mean hiring a lawyer – thinking to yourself, then writing down, “hey, this is how I expect this to be used” is a good starting point.

If you want to release a patch to be shared and incorporated into other people’s work, the other good news is that there are licenses available that are tried and tested and do some of the work for you. That means other users can see a license with which they may already be familiar, and you don’t have to worry (as much) about the legal implications.

I understand the desire to apply “non-commercial” restrictions, but as I’ve written in the past, these provisions tend to be problematic. The problem is the lack of a clear line for what “commercial” is. If you simply don’t want others to reuse your work, you should consider traditional copyright – that’s your right as a creator. If you do want others to reuse your work and are simply afraid of abuse, the “ShareAlike” Creative Commons license and GNU Public License each require others to share any modifications you make. Those rules were created precisely because creators didn’t want to see their work appropriated by others just because you made them free.

The GPL is the license I’d recommend in this case, because it’s a mature, legally-tested license. It’s worth a read-through of the FAQ, because it clears up many misconceptions – for instance, you can charge for your (Max Patch, or other software), you can make commercial software, and the GPL requires others attribute you as well as release any modifications they make to a patch back to the public. That makes a lot of sense for the Max community, since it means the best of both worlds – other people can improve your patch, but they have to then release all those modifications, so you and others can benefit, and you can still sell your patch if you like.

Whatever you choose, I think it’s important to explicitly state your intentions. Then everyone knows the rules by which they’re playing. That doesn’t mean some people won’t disobey those rules, but I also fully expect the community to step in if they feel someone has failed to follow the rules. (We saw that happen on this site recently, of course.)

Disclaimer: these are my own opinions; I’m just adding them here as I think it’s an appropriate time to begin a conversation about this.

In the meantime:

Max Beta

8.2.2b3 is released as of this writing:
Current Beta Version: 8.2.2b3 (updated February 15, 2011) [Ableton Forum]

Changelog

** Improvements and feature changes **

(Note: Some of these changes require an update to the latest version of Max, find a download link above)

- Devices inside Racks can now be accessed via the Max for Live API
- Return tracks can now be observed via the Max for Live API

Live devices and parameters can now be much more easily mapped to controls in Max devices. And devices can safely be moved within a Live Set without breaking any existing mappings. The following
changes make this possible:

- There is now a simple way to observe the selected parameter via the Max for Live API, using “live.path live_set view selected_parameter.” This can be used to, for example, build a custom “map
mode” to quickly map parameters in your Live Set to controls in a Max device.
- Live objects like tracks, clips or parameters retain their identity (id nn) during operations like move, save/restore, cut/paste, delete/undo, the identity is global and can be communicated
via Max’s Send and Receive objects.
- live.object, live.observer and live.remote~ are now able to remember their target objects when Live sets or presets are saved and restored or when objects are moved within the Live set.

** Bugfixes **

- Holding a note while recording a MIDI clip and stopping the transport while the note is held would result in a silent note during play back

Have a test, and let us know what you think.

And I know a number of readers have complained this site has done a poor job of covering all the developments in Max for Live patches – yeah, uh, I am human, as it happens. So do let us know if there are patches you feel are especially important. A terrific resource:
http://maxforlive.com/

  • griotspeak

    Thank you. live.thisdevice would have slipped my notice for a while had you not brought it up.

    Thank you.

    Thank you again. (the rest of the stuff is cool, but every daggum time i make a patch I hit load order issues.)

  • http://aumhaa.blogspot.com amounra

    live.thisdevice. Hellsyeah.

  • Ken

    I LOVE Live. I use it every day. But, there are some real problems that are pushing me and many other users away from it. I wish Ableton would spend less time and effort into releasing Live Packs, M4L/Bridge features, and focus on the real problems they have with the actual stability and functionality of Live. Cracks and pops at Live-created crossfades/where regions join in the arrangement view, and the overall instability of the software. This spans across pc and mac systems. Sometimes Live will just open and crash. Sometimes I'll get multiple CPU dropouts on bounces, in addition to the occasional disk dropout. My unibody MBP is in great condition. This shouldn't be happening. 95% of what Live is doing is spitting out MIDI to hardware synths. I'm really glad that they are so gung-ho about releasing new things and giving users the tools and features that they want, but ever since the incarnation of Live 8, the software has been plagued by instability. I would go back to 7, if Live 7 had the same warp engine improvements…. but it doesn't, and the Live 8 warp engine makes actual sense. Does anyone else notice these problems? I'm sure you do. I'd like to see a fix to Unst-Ableton Live 8. Its to the point that I wouldn't feel comfortable using it in a live situation, but thats a big feature of the software isnt it?

  • Ken

    Oh, small feature request Ableton – Can we get it to the point that I can just rename the MIDI CCs for my saved preset external instruments? I mean, over all this time I've just started memorizing them, but it would be so much easier to just have it saved… rather than look it up all the time. 

    Sorry to derail the conversation there Peter, I love the idea of M4L, but if Live were completely stable – at least to the stability 7 was at, I'd actually plop down the cash to get M4L and start enjoying all of these features :D

  • http://www.soundcloud.com/ninjaontherocks ninjaontherocks

    they should really 'bugfix' the price.

  • HIppo

    M4L is the best piece of software we have on our disposal at the present.

    I do love Live too and use it everyday on big projects. And indeed the big projects are the weak point of Live on my experience. When routings get extremely complex and plugin counts are in hundreds … stuff start to go weirdly wrong. The above mentioned weird clicks on crossfades are an example of the norm. What really drags me personally is when the play-cursor is about two seconds ahead of what you actually hear from the speakers. It makes editing very very hard. also With high plugin count the automation curves are not happening where they are in the timeline. 

    These are major downfalls in a such an innovative and out of the box thinking software. And in everyday use such things tend to push you as the user to other software. 

    Live 9 – crossing my fingers!

  • banned

    "see example code below"

    I scrolled all the way to the bottom and back… where is it? :p

  • Andreas Wetterberg

    awesome-sauce. 

    …although it does seem a bit… tame… to promote the not so novel re-invention of the [loadbang].

    The integration is already beautiful – somewhat difficult at times, but beautiful.

    I'm currently doing a small dmx control rig for a ballet piece, MfL handling all the lights, controlled by Live, in time and on point. 

    I do hope Ableton keeps refining this wonderful tool, and hopefully API control and such will become less and less convoluted.

  • griotspeak

    @banned – above it is the inspector window. i think

  • griotspeak

    @Andreas – it really is not in the changelog. I looked before i read this article and was pleased with the changes but unmoved. I guess that ableton/cycling74 agreed with your view, but i think that was a mistake. thisdevice provides a simple fix for what many have had issues with. Init order is different in Live than it is it MaxMSP. Subtly different. Infuriatingly different at times. Moreso if you use JS and init using loadbang (just don't)

  • no

    yes!

  • Ranch

    i love live. use it daily. why cant they fix the crash issue. 3rd party plugs in live crash constantly. the right side of the screen vanishes completely. if you hit tab and go to session view it seems to fix it. live has to be the most bug infested of all audio soft. sucks i spent two years with it exclusively. like a junkie needing a fix i limp back to it just because when its working there is nothing like it. its like that little blond girlfriend you had in college that was a total bitch. but the lovin was good. same with live just doesnt have a vagina.

  • strunkdts

    "…same with live just doesnt have a vagina."

    Maybe in the next update?

  • lala

    blah, another abletom guy talking about reliability for their alpha software. Should I laugh or cry @ this point?!? 

  • dude

    regarding the beta forum, its hard to stick around after a year when nothing improves, funny cause ive finally got live8 running on a 7 year old laptop when it wont even run on a c2d.

    support barely helped.

    i wish that those of us who payed for live8 and are unable (excuse the pun) to use it on our machine were able to use older version that do actually work.

    thanks for M4L, cant wait to buy it, but at that price i cant justify it right now considering i dont have the power to run it.

  • dude

    ableton updates are lame, bandwidth is expensive inmy country, having to download a gig file instead of just pressing a button to update is too much money down the drain when the update doesnt even work…

  • dude

    sorry for the rant peter

  • Bynar

    @RB 

    I was so upset when cycling decided to part ways with pluggo. As a longtime Logic user I felt burned. 

    We all have heard the stories about unreliable performance with the most recent version of Live 8. Ableton should drop VST and AU support and make the enviornment close. If they did that they can have some sort of m4l runtime where people without the license can run m4l plugins. I know so many people are resistant to that sort of an idea but I think that by going the Propellerhead route things would be become very stable. This would be ideal for a live performance environment.  I remember back in the pre midi days of Live bouncing audio recordings from other DAWs and stretching and mangling those loops in Live. That was back when Live was fun. 

  • lala

    of

  • lala

    As long as ableton is still talking about reliability, we can be sure it’s still buggy as hell. 
    Imagine ford saying now you can drive around the corner with our cars, without the engine turning off. Wouldnt that be a great sales pitch?

  • http://bubblescum.com Vaihe

    I agree it’s nice to see updates and new features, but stability should be 1# priority.

    Live is for LIVE and issues with stability is no go. Live 8.x is the most un-stable version of Live yet.

  • http://covops.org Bjorn Vayner

    For all those claiming Live is unstable, where are you in the beta threads? Its pretty silent there now. Either Live is getting more stable or there are only 5 guys testing it.
    I have only one outstanding bug left, everything else I’ve reported has been fixed.
    8.2.2 may be my 7.0.18 :)

  • martin wheeler

    The absolute LAST thing Ableton should ever consider doing is to drop AU/VST support etc and retreat into some sot of closed Reason-like land …  the whole interest of M4L is precisely that you have this amazing combination of the open-endedness of Max within a flexible DAW environment that can take advantage of eveything else that is out there. For me, having modifiable wildstyle rollyourown M4L compositional craziness happening within a SSL, Altiverb et al mix environment takes things to a whole new level. But if some people want to not use VSTs for stability reasons, then of course, there is nothing stopping you not using them is there ?

  • http://www.myspace.com/gliiitches Leon Tricker

    I’ve just sold Max for Live. And Ableton Live. And a Launchpad. And my audio interface. I’m buying a modular synth. Personally I can’t deal with software for music anymore.

  • loopstationzebra

    I'm happy to see that all 23 users of M4L are happy. lol.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world…

  • RB

    Still no way to exchange data between instruments directly, still no multichannel in Live.

    Give me my Pluggo back !

    Duuh.

  • lala

    is ableton doomed since robert has left?

  • Peter Kirn

    Keep the *constructive* criticism of Ableton coming, as that's useful … this other business, less so.

    As for Robert, I think you'll find he remains involved and invested in Ableton and Ableton Live, including as an artist. Ableton would likely be doomed follow his departure if he had been their only programmer. He wasn't. ;)

    All other things, as I said, worth criticizing, but I wouldn't read too much into the future of Ableton or Robert devoting more time to artmaking (lucky him!)

  • Jonah

    I’m hoping by Live 9 you don’t need the Suite to buy M4L. I mean they target pretty different audiences, right?. I don’t need another VA or FM synth or even amp sim.  It’s interesting Ableton Live is now the most expensive mainstream DAW by far isn’t it?

  • Jonah

    @Bynar Couldn’t you, you know, just not use AUs/VSTs? 
    I agree with you though. The more Ableton has tried to become a common DAW the less I use it. If Ableton and Cycling worked together bringing the intuitiveness of Live to the power of MAX/MSP and started a user library similar to Reaktor, it would be amazing and a return to Live’s ground breaking roots. It’s a fun fantasy, but it won’t happen. 

  • vanceg

    @ Peter: You're likely right about Ableton likely being doomed is Robert was their only programmer…but I sure hope he takes that comment in the way you and I would mean it ;-)

    @Bynar: I agree with Martin Wheeler: The LAST thing Live should become is a closed system.

    @Ken: I had some stability issues with the initial versions of Live 8, and I understand some people are still experiencing problems that they find significant, but to answer your "do you see these problems?" question: NO. Absolutely not. I'm pretty pleased with 8.2.

    @Ranch: Wow – I use about 64 third party plugins in my standard Live template and don't experience any of these issues you bring up.

    I'm not (and would not) debate that any one person is having specific problems with Live…But rather pointing out that these issues may not be as widespread as you(s) may perceive them as being when you are experiencing them. For each of those examples of folks saying "Live is just entirely unstable" there are many others who don't even feel the NEED to go online and check on how stable Live is…because it's not an issue for them at all.

    Again – I'm not under the illusion that Live is 100% stable for 100% of users. But rather that we should all be careful in assuming that our own situation (good or bad) is shared by the majority users….of any software.

  • griotspeak

    @johah you do NOT need to buy suite to Max for Live. Do you mean you wish M4L was part of suite?

  • lala

    i wasn't talking about his programming skills;)

  • http://m-clis.pdj.com m clis

    well, for all those guys who still want some awesome support of AU and VST – don't you think, that it actually could be some "illness" of those plug-ins ? I mean, ableton works with all the stuff in very different way, it's the only realtime DAW (no need to stop when adding stuff or else), with absolutely free internal routing and fully hackable via max/msp. And those vst/au are made, first of all, for these "old-school" DAWs, Logic and Cubase, first of all. And those are neary 20-30 years old, and still have their "pain-in-ass-crashes", so, please, give a chance for this absolutely revolutinary and be patient – ableton 9, I hope, is going to be a killer)

  • Random Chance

    Some things I wish were available/supported or just easy in Live and M4L:

     * Sending MIDI clocks, filtering MIDI signals without having to build an M4L patch for that.
     *  Making an M4L equivalent of Max’s [autopattr] object. (Maybe the next release has it, can’t really tell from the description)
      * Working with multiple channels/sidechain input in M4L patches just like the built-in Live devices can.
      * Better documentation (with some of the things I want I have the feeling that I would see that they are readily available if it were just for the documentation).
      * Fixing integration with graphics tablets in M4L (cf. [wacom] object).
      * Thinking about all this (and future issues that might come up): Now that we have M4L, make it standard (at least a basic implementation without Jitter and maybe without even MSP) and implement something like a modern version of Logic’s environment that exposes the complete MIDI flow of Live to the user. (Can you tell, I’m very much into MIDI?)

    Oh yeah, and I’d like to see a collection of abstractions for M4L capturing common design pattersn for building different kinds of patches. That one could easily be accomplished by the user community and maybe it has. I’m criminally out of touch with most developments as I simply don’t have enough time.

  • two years on

    lol @ "bjorn vayner"

    For a start people send crash logs via email not the beta forum. There's a lot of reporting going on in private. Second of all it's two years. TWO WHOLE YEARS. since ableton started selling this glorified poop before it was ready for human consumption.

    Traditionally the beta testing happens before the money changes hands. After that it's the bugfixing. Two years ? ya. Two years.

  • griotspeak

    Hostile much? I took lala's statement as a joke. like, intentionally meant to be humorous.

    it HAS been a while, but many MANY bugs have been squashed. some created or discovered as those were squashed. It is a fact of software development. bugs happen.

    I really hope we get a listener for when clips are added to a track.

  • lala

    @Andreas Wetterberg: if it works for you have fun with it !

  • lala

    please ableton, blow my mind again as it used to be :)

  • Random Chance

    @griotspeak, I don't think Andreas is being hostile towards anyone. He's just making a point. You could even go as far as saying that's he's being constructive by bringing a new perspective to this discussion. In my book that's better than spamming a thread with trollish postings. But, whatever, I'm probably a humourless, hostile individual (or make that suppressive person, if you like that better), too. :-D

    Seems like every place on the net needs to have at least one Ableton "hater," just like you got to have your Fruity Hoops, Apple or Windows haters. 

  • http://twitter.com/jasonswe Jason

    I am quite fantastically happy with M4L AND Live 8 Suite REGARDLESS of bugs here and there and even flat out crashes from time to time. I am still quite able to get out of it what I need to get out of myself. It is still worth every Euro I paid for it (BOTH pieces of software). The plugins that follow the M4L install and everything available on maxforlive.com just make this a gift that keeps on giving. I think sometimes people get stuck on what something cannot do instead of diving deep and pulling out everything it CAN DO. Just make music.

  • Andreas Wetterberg

    meanwhile people still work with MaxForLive, use it every day, teach it at schools, blow students minds a little bit with the inner workings, go nuts with them over pattrstorage preset morphing, do weird robotics projects, integrate hardware controllers and weird HIDs, and generally live their lives pretty well.   

    But by all means, lets keep this thread as an Ableton Feature Request thread. That will definitely get their attention.

    Oh and @lala; unsuccesful troll is unsuccesful.

  • Bynar

    I would be very excited about a refurbished version of the original Ableton software sold as a 'lite version'. It would include the updated warp engine, all of the classic effects, unlimited tracks, and no midi tracks. That would be a good way for Ableton to go back to the basics. 

  • Peter Kirn

    @Bynar:

    Confused. The original warp engine is still available in Ableton, alongside the newer "Complex" modes, etc. All of the "classic" effects are there, too.

    And you want to get rid of MIDI tracks in Live… why?

    I've used Live since, quite literally, 1.0. I don't see any of that functionality absent. I understand on reliability issues, user mileage can vary, but not sure on this functionality stuff.

  • Jonah

    @griotspeak Haha, wow good to be wrong! I don't know why I thought that you needed Suite. M4L is now on my list.

  • griotspeak

    @jonah glad to be of service!

  • http://www.facebook.com/aaron.zilch Aaron Zilch

    If Ableton is so horribly unstable then why are so many big names and organizations relying on it for their multi-million dollar businesses? 

    I agree with "m clis" that you really need to look at the plug ins you are using as being a potential culprit. Also, not to come off as a Jobs fanboy, but isn't it virtually impossible to properly test the stability of anything on a PC due to the nearly infinite combinations of hardware? A Mac is a Mac and you can make sure things work. Everyone that I am aware of doing "serious business" with Ableton ( Cirque Du Solie, Deadmaus, Plastikman, Tiesto etc) is running it on a Mac. I could very well be wrong, but I have a feeling those of you with serious issues are not.

    I think a big challenge Ableton has faced is the insanely rapid growth of the company and their user base over the last 5 years. They went from being virtually unknown to selling at Best Buy. They are obviously addressing it, they are constantly posting for new employees, especially programmers.

    I also think it is a good sign that we haven't really heard about Live 9 yet. They seem to be focusing on making 8 as tight as possible and bringing us all the features they promised with it rather than trying to get us all to pony up for another upgrade fee. I bet we will see the collaboration features and another major upgrade to M4L before we even hear mutterings about 9.

    @Ken I highly doubt that Artist Packs, M4L, or The Bridge are taking up much of Ableton's programmer's time. The Packs are created by third parties and from what I've heard a lot of the heavy lifting on The Bridge and M4L is being handled by Serato and Cycling, especially at this point.

    As a someone who teaches Live, I agree the documentation could be better (it was amazing how many people were wondering if a certain functionality would be possible w/ M4L when it was already there if they knew all the nooks and crannies), but that could be said for most things. If you need help there is always a certified trainer you can talk to, or check out the excellent work of fellows like Jon Margulies.

    AFA closing the system and dropping VSTs/AUs, how about you just make the personal decision not to use them? Or bounce anything you need to use in a live situation if your stability w/ certain plugs is that bad?

    I will say I am an admitted Ableton fan boy and have been there since v1 as well, but I do still have my minor caveats. I just still think they are doing an amazing job considering how much ground they have broken, and their ongoing aspirations to continue to give their users the added functionality  they ask for, and more than we dared imagine.

  • vanceg

    @m clis: Yes, there could be illness in the plugins themselves. I suggest that if you find some that don't work well with Live you 1) stop using it (which I'm sure you'd do!) and 2) report it to both Ableton and the Plugin maker. That's about all you can do. Then 3) try to find an alternative plugin. I'm using 64 3ed party plugs with my main Live template and they work pretty well.

    As a side note: Logic and Cubase haven't been DAWs for 20 or 30 years…unless you are considering the MIDI only versions to be DAWs. Audio editing on computers really started (commercially) somewhere near 1986 or 87, and really only came into it's own in the early 1990s with the likes of Sonic Solutions and later Digidesign and other (then) lower-end systems.

    I only mention that because it really DOES FEEL like DAWs have been around "forever"…but I distinctly recall in the early 1990's folks being astounded and amazed at the apparent "magic" of the Sonic Solutions system..

    Of course, I recall using $45,000 CD burners and $150 blank CDs (yes, each blank CD!). And I don't even need a wheelchair yet.

  • lala

    "they are constantly posting for new employees, especially programmers",

    yes, when i saw ableton berlin in german breakfast tv saying we are hiring programmers it almost made me lose my breakfast again.

    its like they are saying: oh no we didnt made lots of bad business decissions, we just need to hire new minds to fix the mess.

    think for yourself what that does mean.

  • martin wheeler

    You want them to  cut  back on the number of programmers they employ ? Are you related to the people who want them to drop MIDI … ? And AU/VST … And …. ?

    I've been using Live as my primary DAW since v 1.0 ( yeah me too) and while it sure isn't a "muti-million dollar business" I make a very good living composing music for films, primarily using Live ,M4L and many, many, many plugs – every single day of the week

    since the word go. Like ALL software it is far from perfect, but from my point of view, and for my purposes, it is absolutely the best music making software that I am aware of … 

    If you want to use something else, maybe with no MIDI, no VST and/or no employees, then fine. Luckily for all of us there are many, many altrnatives out there …

  • lala

    its no use talking here, people cant read; i'll shut up.

  • tsutek

    The past few weeks I've been using Numeroloy by Five12, and I think Numerology has everything that I ever hoped I could accomplish with M4L – and I don't even have to build anything! The CPU hit is barely noticeable no matter how much MIDI data I generate.

    I'm starting to think that M4L is a bad idea. O'well – by Live 10, perhaps it will be truly usable.. I can wait.

  • tsutek

    And just add Tassman 4 for the MSP replacement.. I know it doesn't cover much of the same ground, but at least it sounds musically usable (for me at least) without me having to learn to do a bunch of maths.

    I wish M4L would be more high-level DSP friendly as well.. wouldn't mind a bit.