I generally avoid commenting on Apple rumors, lest I find a severed horse head atop my MacBook Pro, but this one seems simply to be obvious. Apple took a radical approach to Final Cut Pro X (and Motion), giving them full overhauls and new UIs, 64-bit support, and distribution through the online Mac App Store instead of exclusively through online distribution. It stands to reason that their current Logic Studio will get something along the lines of the same treatment.

Sure enough, rumors are surfacing saying as much. (I’ve gotten at least one email, secondhand – no, Apple, no Apple employee has said anything to me; if they had, I wouldn’t even think of posting this story). For instance:
Apple Moving Toward Release of Logic Pro X? [MacRumors]

Now, of course, what I’ve heard even more than rumors is users of Logic in an absolute panic that Apple will muck around with their product. Putting it diplomatically, feedback to Final Cut Pro X has not been overwhelmingly positive. I have no idea what the next version of Logic will look like, so it’s very possible Apple will indeed screw around with Logic in a way that makes its existing user base unhappy. But, since I feel free to speculate idly simply because I really, truly don’t know anything and thus can’t get anyone fired / violate any NDAs (again, Apple, please, please, please don’t hurt me), I’ll say this:

Assuming Apple is “running away from pro users” is probably wrong. This was a widespread reading of Final Cut Pro X. I think it’s fair to say Apple hoped their adjustments would attract new users put off by previous versions and other pro non-linear editors. Otherwise, though, I have to disagree. Apple’s pro user base is hugely profitable, in direct sales and high-margin, high-end Mac sales, and there are a lot of those users out there – I’ve sat with that team at Apple as they talked video pro sales numbers, for actual sales from pros, not even including pirated copies. (Anyone who thinks Apple likes to see their product pirated so they can sell more Mac hardware? Highly unlikely, that, too.) There’s a big difference between wanting to alienate your pro user base, and doing it inadvertently. I think Apple’s reputation is such that people have come to believe that everything they do is part of a grand plan, even when it’s not.

Developers want to make changes. Big changes don’t always work as expected, or work right away. Users are resistant to changes, and far more resistant the more the use of software is part of their pro, up-against-deadlines, demanding workflows. That’s the bottom line. I’m not going to be terribly complimentary here, though: I think the problem with Final Cut isn’t that it was designed for non-pro users, but that it wasn’t finished or fully fleshed-out. Enough has been said about that – see The Internet – but I can imagine anything similar in Logic would cause some (rightfully) unhappy users. And quality and implementation are everything; there’s a reason I gave Motion a positive review in Macworld, and you haven’t heard similar complaints about it, even though it uses some of the same UX paradigms and underlying engine. I hope future updates to Final Cut are more like that version of Motion in terms of user experience. (This is not a Final Cut review; that’d be glib. Suffice to say I tried Final Cut Pro X and decided to do editing in another program, and that I do appreciate some of what I believe Apple was trying to do, and that I do hope future versions are more successful. This is the reality of using pro tools.)

That said –

Apple is probably not overhauling Logic as thoroughly as Final Cut. Final Cut’s code base, as of Final Cut Pro 7, was not 64-bit and was dependent on deprecated video frameworks; it’s not unreasonable to assume that Apple felt they had to start over from scratch. Logic already has 64-bit support, and is already built atop parallel audio frameworks like Core Audio and Core MIDI that haven’t changed so radically. So while file management, save and undo, and other Lion-style features would likely call for changes, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose the old Logic, necessarily. And Logic has already undergone one Apple-administered UI overhaul, which was able to preserve the way Logic users work with the tool. Part of what’s admirable about Logic is its longevity, love it or hate it, so while a UI reskin is almost certainly in the works, that doesn’t mean Logic Pro X will be like Logic Studio X.

Apple will probably try to do Mac App Store distribution and take out some bundled apps. You don’t need rumors to figure this one out. App Store distribution? Almost certain. Unbundling tools like Soundtrack Pro or the rarely-used WaveBurner, each of which has robust competition from other developers? Certainly not unlikely. The interesting question here will be how Apple handles the sheer size of things like bundled audio content, and whether Logic’s support for plug-ins will mean either adjusting App Store rules, or whether Logic will get a special exception because it’s Apple (fully within their rights).

Apple probably won’t dump support for plug-ins. Apple continues to actively develop its Audio Unit plug-in format and push validation, and if they didn’t support plug-ins, they’d disrupt users and the entire vendor ecosystem. I’ll be stunned if that goes away. One thing they almost certainly will dump is technologies like Pro Tools interface compatibility – Avid has been moving toward Core Audio support, anyway – and possibly even ReWire. But while any change anywhere in a DAW will impact someone, neither of those would be likely to radically change user relationships to the tool.

Also, as a reader points out, Final Cut Pro X supports plug-ins.

The most interesting thing to me about all of this is whether the appearance of Logic on the Mac App Store, if it happens, will impact other audio apps. So far, it’s been a desert there, as I and some others (read: developers) predicted, partly because music software is so dependent on the plug-in ecosystem and sales to users through direct channels or music stores.

Additional evidence: GarageBand is already in the App Store, and supports plug-ins (AU). So the real question here is more the question of whether other hosts would try to / be allowed to follow the same model, and whether even plug-in distribution, using approved Apple frameworks, were allowed. (The former seems more likely than the latter: you can run a host without a plug-in, but not visa versa.)

What I’m interested in is whether other software follows suit at all. Aperture, Motion, and Final Cut haven’t necessarily produced an onslaught of other pro tools for visual Mac users – at least, not so many high-end or flagship tools, though there are many really useful smaller ones. Will audio be different?

Disclaimer: I know nothing. All of the above is purely speculative, based on things that to me seem pretty obvious. I’m not divulging secret, privileged information, my brain isn’t under an NDA, and all of that means I could be completely wrong. Take with a box of salt.

Updated: I neglected to link, by way of contrast, this editorial from around the time of the most heated Final Cut followup:
The End Is Night…

In it, Chris Randall (himself a plug-in developer tasked with supporting Logic and AU validation) argues basically the exact opposite of what I do here.

In review, my entire analysis above could be summed up as this: Logic will be on the App Store. It’ll still be more or less the Logic you love, or don’t love, as the case may be, but it’s unlikely to introduce radically new feelings even if you aren’t getting a stack of DVDs.

  • Theo den Brinker

    Hmm, logical (no pun intended)and well reasoned speculation about a new product from Apple.

    I am not sure you really understand how to write for the internet Peter.

  • Enoch Jones

    FCPX supports audio unit plugins, so I don't see why logic wouldn't

  • Dave

    FCP also released without the ability to preview your video on an external monitor. Nor capture live video. Think about this for a minute.

  • Peter Kirn

    Right, those sorts of omissions were followed with public statements that at least future updates were anticipated. They seemed to me to be things that weren't finished, not things that made the tool more beginner-friendly or even beginner-focused. 

    Of course, as a software reviewer, I've been there before, where you have a product that has great ideas but you get the sense it isn't complete. And I do talk to developers some of the time about what happens when you get into that situation.

    Logic *should* theoretically have the advantage of not needing to start with an entirely new code base.

  • DBM

    I think the rule ONLY rules out plugins and not the hosts so no reason for other devs to not try …. Other than any distrobution agreements they may have …. As far as no plugins being there …. Other devs could do as I suggested and Tempo Rubato eventually did ; buy the stand alone get the plugin " free" . They either are just not so inclined , or clever , or have need ? As far as Logic X ….time will tell ,but as they are not being trendsetters and have to deal with ever increasing competition I can not see them doing anything to make it hobbled in comparison . If I had to guess what would be new in it …. I would look for Live type scene/clip launching functioning . I could see them cutting some of the older plugins out though . I guess time will tell ? 

  • nylarch

    Hopefully more shroom-tastic instrument GUI design!

  • VR

    I hope logic doesn't become garage band pro.

  • Aaron

    It would be interesting to see how the 40 gigs of samples and loops are handled via a Mac App Store distribution.

    A

  • Terrible

    Peter,

    I'll just chime in (I'm sure I won't be the only one …) since I know and use FCP and was disappointed (to say the least) with the shifts that FCPX represent.

    First I think the "users are resistant to change …" line is nothing but apologia. Intense users are resistant to change for change's sake – they generally welcome change and innovation that means something, offers improved functionality, speeds or opens workflows, etc. I think this is true in any creative field and any craft, computer-based or otherwise.

    I'll also note that the "follow-up statements" by Apple are actually only one posting on their site, and they are quite limited in what they say (though they do promise "an update this summer" – still to come as of Sept 7). This post also does little to suggest Apple has any real interest in support for broadcast monitoring.

    But really, I came here to remind you of one glaring design flaw with FCPX that you did mention – it will not open legacy projects. (It is difficult to call this a flaw, since it is actually a design intention.)

    Now imagine the new Logic X that won't open any older projects …

    Now imagine that it will import legacy Garage Band projects …

    You now have a sense of where their software design priorities are.

    If you are going to counter the prevailing currents that suggest Apple is abandoning the "pro" segment, you'll have to address their other hardware (Mac Pro, XServe) and software (Shake) decisions of the past few years.

  • Terrible

    correction above: "… the one glaring design flaw that you did not mention …"

  • rockridge98

    "One thing they almost certainly will dump is technologies like Pro Tools interface compatibility". That ship sailed over 2 years ago when Avid stopped supporting Logic compatibility with Pro Tools hardware.

  • dj2mn

    I'll be happy if they just make Logic work properly with Spaces/Mission Control and multiple monitors. 

  • Brian

    All I want is a midi drum editor. All I want is a midi drum editor. 

  • MegaTonne

    They've been stupifying Logic since they acquired it, like one big moaning crescendo in a cheap austrian porn flick… logic X is gonna be the money shot.

    You heard it here first!

  • VR

    I'd really like to see what inprovemts  logics environment well get. 

  • sarmoung

    What I'd like to see in the next Logic (and Ableton which I also use) is the ability to use features more freely between them. So, Sculpture, Space Designer and whatever, surely these are Audio Units? If I buy Logic, why can't I use these in Live just as I do any other separate AU plugin that I've purchased? Similarly, say Resonator in Logic.

    I appreciate there are ways around this, but they're not that straightforward or swift to set up. 

    (As I also appreciate, it's probably not going to happen!)

  • aje

    If they remove Rewire, as you speculate, that would certaiinly upset the apple-cart, if you pardon the pun…

    if you check out the Propellerhead YouTube channel for example you will find that a lot of the big-name Reason users (e.g. in the Hip hop undustry) are big fans of using Reason and Logic (together). With the new audio features and effects coming to Reason 6, I suspect that there would be some who would simply ditch Logic and shift entirely into Reason (or else swap Logic for the new "open" Pro Tools 9). Then there are people who use Ableton/etc rewired into Logic, for example to use the Ableton Suite instruments within their Logic productions… I know this is just speculation of course, but removing Rewire would be exactly the kind of mistake with Logic to mirror the mistakes made with FCPX. (by the way, I just saw in the news that they have climbed down and put the previous version of Funal Cut back on sale to appease pro users…)

  • Peter Kirn

    @Terrible: Inability to open legacy products is a "design intention"? Highly, highly doubtful. I'd love it if glaring design flaws were part of an evil plan; that'd be more impressive than the likely reality. Overhauling file formats is not an unusual thing when you do a big upgrade; failing to account for file compatibility is most likely an engineering failure. 

    I'm not apologizing for FCP X. If the product fails to meet the needs of core users, it fails to meet the needs of core users. I'm suggesting that it wasn't the intention of the product to jettison pro users — the marketing copy alone makes it clear they thought this stuff would appeal to "pro editors." Our job as reviewers or technologists or users is to evaluate the resulting product for our needs, not the marketing intention, of course. As an individual user, that can even be a personal decision — which means whatever you choose is in effect "right." 

    Final Cut Pro 7 is not, it appears, back in production; it appears that's just an overstock of inventory. It may be a concession to sell that overstock, but it's not a supported product and I haven't seen Apple go back to FCP 7. 

  • Otto

    Apple's been trying to kill Logic since thy bought Emagic. Before that, the competition between DAWs where all open and healthy for us, the users, Cubase and Logic where really having a go at each others back then. Then almighty Apple got in the game, and all they ever did, was adding a few improvements and all their "work flow crap". Then a major price drop and a lot of weak Apple loops some unnecessary guitar crap. Why should they even try to please users with "difficult" needs when they can sell twice as much when marketing wide and cheap, that's how I got Final Cut X. As far as operating system, OS X still beats Win7, but Logic's been slowly dying for many years.

  • MegaTonne

    Overhauling a file format is one thing, but *SURELY* they could quite easily *CONVERT* legacy projects into the new format ? omitting that functionality is definitely evil empire material, not unfortunate oversight.

    As for featuring the word ''pro'' in their marketing blither blather, that hardly means much. ''PRO'' is a marketable buzzword, even to total noobs. Perhaps especially to noobs. Whether it's actually a pro application or not is down to the eating of the pudding so to speak, and I think we can all agree (as the internet as a whole can testify)…it totally titsed up that aspect of the application.

    Anyway I'll be shocked if Logic X isn't just a daw retelling of the FCPX fiasco.

  • David

    GarageBand and Logic already have a common codebase. iMovie and FCP7 did not.  Very little chance of a similar transition fiasco to FCP X.

    I'd also bet that some developers are working on both products, which could contribute to release delays.

  • aje

    But having put the previous version of Final Cut back on sale now, surely they will have learnt something… it's a climb-down and a half by their standards… I don't think they will want to repeat the humiliation with Logic., That would be too dumb…

  • http://jakubtylcer.com Jakub

    I think that they should release it very soon – as there are still many logic and 8 users including myself who upgraded to lion without checking Logic Lion compatibility (and feeling bit pissed off).

    It also seems obvious that they will dump Express version and merge it with Pro. I think that there will be also another significant price drop – partly for hypothetical Logic Express discontinuation and partly for inability to sell upgrades for non-appstore software.

    Rumors also state that Waveburner would be integrated into Logic – that seems quite Logical as they could communicate Logic as complete workflow from initial song idea to CD master ready to be sent to pressing plant.

  • Juno

    I _have_ spoken to Apple employees directly. While they did not commit to anything specific, they made it clear that Logic is considered an important professional tool at Apple and that there were no plans to lose that position.

    Apple won't tell you anything straight, but the implication was there was no dramatic changes planned.

  • Humildemente

    @Aaron: my bet is that the samples would be downloaded on demand, very much like Garageband's 'Learn to Play' video lessons (which totals nearly 25 Gb, not considering the 'Artist Lessons').

  • Dave

    @Peter: FCPX has been out for almost 3 months now. We have not had any updates.  Anybody who thinks Logic will be handled delicately because it's on the 'top tier' needs to realize final cut had a far bigger market share in relation to avid than logic does to pro tools. It also sold big hardware, including the Xserve. 

  • Terrible

    Peter,

    Changing file formats is not the issue – anyone who works with sophisticated software expects this.

    You seem to suggest, however, that compatibility, import, upgrade of old projects aren't considered while designing the software and only investigated as an afterthought.

    If such considerations are ignored or de-prioritized, that's intention.

    I suppose you're right though – it could be incompetence.

    Either way, it's evidence that should be considered when evaluating the software and Apple as a company.

  • MegaTonne

    @Dave

    exactly.

  • teej

    Personally, I think Logic could use some messing with. There are 20 years worth of features rattling around in there, a vast amount of which haven't been practically useful en masse in a very, very long time. It's a behemoth, and could use a good dressing down. 

    Before you assume I want Garageband Deluxe, I am a "pro" user who has been using Logic since v4. I am a sound designer and composer as my fulltime career, and I'd honestly say I use MAYBE 1 to 5 percent of the actual features in Logic. The rest are either ignored, hidden or in the way. 

    When v8 came around touting a super simple one window interface, I first thought perhaps it had gotten the "X treatment" way back then. But no, they just moved the furniture and stuffed a bunch of stuff into closets and under the bed. It's pretty from the front door, but the people who live inside know what a mess the back bedrooms still are. 

    Regarding the App Store: Bring it on. Only about 6GB of the bundled content is actually playable instruments and IR sources. The other 30+ GBs are nothing but Garageband JamPacks and Soundtrack Pro Apple Loops. If people want those let them get them in App Store as well. Is anyone really that psyched for poppy loop content that has been heard on every HGTV show since 2001? 

    Soundtrack Pro is great, but it's becoming increasingly out of place. Made sense as part of FCP, but who is developing it these days? The Final Cut team? The Logic team? Is it still it's own app? My opinion is that it too should end up as an optional add-on in the app store. 

    There will no doubt be knee-jerk reactions to any drastic changes, but over time people will realize that a trimmer, slimmer Logic is better for everyone's health. I'd love to sneak into their machines in the middle of the night and remove 90% of Logic's legacy features. I guarantee they'd never even notice. 

    Of course we still need plug-in support, Rewire support, etc. But do we really NEED the endless tabs, menus, windows and preferences buried within them which open a dusty attic door into the 1990's? No way. 

  • s ford

    i'm a big fan of logic, been using it since v4 (man i feel old reading that) 

    there are some great things about it but they do need to streamline a lot of the programme.  the environment in particular is a very powerful and useful tool but it seems needlessly convoluted.  it was a great tool for external midi equipment like rackmount synths and samplers w

    to create a rewire template or something requires a ridiculous amount of setting in comparison to something like ableton live or digital performer 

    like teej above stated, i would like it if they did make an attempt to cut down on a lot of the features which are now obsolete or little used. 

  • Dominic Shovelton

    @s ford – the thing is what you or I think is obsolete someone else still uses regularly!

  • http://www.valhalladsp.com Sean Costello

    @sarmoung – from what I have heard, the instruments and effects in Logic are NOT Audio Units. These instruments/effects go back a LONG way, and probably use a simpler interface than the unnecessarily complex AU "standard." So they are probably built into the app itself.

    As far as the Audio Unit "Standard," my money is placed on this "standard" changing yet again in Logic X. The not-so-secret truth of the Audio Unit Standard is that the real standard is "whatever works in Logic." So, as a developer, you can have an Audio Unit that follows the published specs, and runs great in Live and GarageBand, but fails AU Validation in Logic and therefore will not run. Since Logic is the biggest AU host, you do what you need to do to get it running, and you know that it may break in future OS/Logic updates. At least Steinberg has the courtesy of changing the VST version number (i.e. VST 2.3/2.4/3.0) when changing their standards.

  • Brian

    VST support and fast automation handling for 3rd party plugins and ill be a happy monkey …i might start using it for production if they added vst support. Till then…nope, ill stick to live. 

  • MegaTonne

    If someone's asking for AU support, chances are it's for use in Logic. So it stands to reason it should validate in Logic (whoopy for you if you can get it running in Live)

  • James

    I'd be happy with trimmed down Logic, hell I'd be happy with ONE synth, ONE drum machine, ONE channel strip et cetera – if Apple overhauled these and made them deep, accessible and competitive sounding, I think everyone would be happy. Drop rewire etc on pain of death!

  • Random Chance

    @Sean Costello: True, there are some problems with the changing of the standard that is AU, but claiming that some plugins work in some hosts but fail AU validation in Logic is ridiculous. Logic uses the standard auval command line tool to validate each AU plugin. Look here for more info:&nbsp ;http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/auval.1.html
    If you develop plugins, you should at least run them by auval once before release.

    Another thing I would not say is that AU is unecessarily complex. The API has some quirks and the documentation could be a lot better, but you get everything done. It's a decent plugin (audio, MIDI or otherwise) format as far as I am concerned.

  • http://apeskinny.co.uk spinner

    Although I don't fully agree with Chris of AI's view on the future of Logic there must have been a conversation at Apple HQ whether to keep the "pro" attributions or not.

    In reality there isn't much need for LP to cater for pro users anymore. The app has never been able to keep up with PT in recording studios and with the midi updates in "tools" there is even a less of need for a working copy of LP in a commercial recording studio now.

    Sound designers, composers and arranger do use LP in a professional capacity but of the ones in my vicinity this is mostly out of tradition rather than necessity or product spec.

    However I agree with the above sentiment that it's unlikely that they will drop third party plugin support or dumb down the midi editors so the workflow for say a pro composer is unlikely to change much.

    If I was starting out making music today the price point is what would attract me to Logic, not the functionalities.

    There are other apps that perform the same duties as LP and quite often better. If you're also of the perception (like many are) that you have to learn at least 50% of the app to be able to use it. a hell of a learning curve awaits you.

    If I was in charge of the Pro team at Apple I would lose both GB and LP and make it the same app. Give up any aspiration of keeping up with the "pro" competition and stop trying to have an app that is trying to play nice with everyone.

    Alternatively I'd do the opposite and forget about the mass market.

    Apple will probably do neither and I expect some console "flava" plugs ala "Heat" and that the Apple loops will be downloadable from the App store as AAC files.

  • J

    Spinner, are you nostalgic for the old Digidesign monopoly? ^^

  • http://noisepages.com/members/foldy/ Fahad

    I always get a bit worried when I hear of big updates like this. And as I would like to see a lot of the old bugs cleaned up, I (like many of you I assume) would love to see logic catch up with with other daw's like cubase or ableton, in terms of feature set. But this may also be the update that sends me off to Steinberg…. I hope not

  • http://apeskinny.co.uk spinner

    @J Haha, nope! 

    I'm not just sure I see the need for Logic anymore as a pro app.

    A number of years ago you needed to run both because it wasn't always the best approach to dump all the sequenced Logic material into PT. Also try midi scoring on PT7 or earlier, not fun!

    WIth PT's midi abilities now and Rewire, it makes so much more sense to start working in Live (or any Rewire capable app) and transfer the project to the studio, hook it up to PT and off you go.

    I couldn't care less if Logic or Avid was the go-to choice for recording studios but Pro Tools is a dedicated pro app with no aspirations of trying to be everything for everyone.

    They've got a money grabbing support scheme which sucks but once you have your system running it rarely fails.

    Logic could have become the king of MIDI if they'd developed the environment for serious users but instead they ignore it and hide it as much as possible as it's clearly considered to complicated for Tom, Dick and Harry.

    As it is now it's a neither / nor app where great functionality gets bundled up with a DAW for the Dummies approach.

  • http://www.peterweis.com Peter Weis

    Just seems like overall that Apple seems to care less and less bout the pro users, ironically the ones who supported them the most before they were so big. 

  • http://www.valhalladsp.com Sean Costello

    @Random Chance: Do you know of any documentation for auval that explains what a given error code is? I've been looking for auval documentation, and all I found is the extremely sparse page you pointed to. And yeah, I test my plugins in Logic several times a day, so I run them through auval a lot.

    Stepping outside of my little world, Apple changed auval in Lion, so some plugins that were previously working no longer work. The question is, who does this really help? And if Lion changes things such that older Audio Units won't work any more, I would say that Apple is no longer following their own Audio Unit standards.

  • hdkdhsj

    Didn't they already turn logic into garageband pro? Didnt we already complain?

  • http://mucca-pazza.org Andy

    I've been a Logic user since ver. 7.  I've also been a Reason user since ver 2.0.  I keep upgrading both of these products and it's fascinating to watch how they evolve.  Now, Reason 6 I'm incredibly geeked about.  The Reason interface just works for me; the hardware-like paradigm has not only taught me about the workings of real-life gear, but has been a mental bookmark that's been easy to understand and recall.  Logic is anything but easy to understand.  What's the environment and why is it separate from the mixer?  What's the hyper editor and why is it different from the piano roll?  The Logic team faces a difficult challenge: bring Logic into the modern era without losing a lot of functionality.  In the environment you can create arpeggiators.  Make this a plugin (for example).

    Also, please do something with Score.  It's SO HARD TO USE.

    I dislike distribution on the Mac App Store simply for the reason that it's tied to an individual's iTunes account.  I have my license of Logic installed on my personal laptop and also on the Mac Pro at the studio I work out of.  I don't want to be logged into my iTunes account on that machine.

  • http://www.valhalladsp.com Sean Costello

    The online distribution of Logic will bug the crap out of me, due to the low download speeds in our house. Not everyone lives in Shallow Alto, and not everyone has a fat fiber porn pipe running into their house. It took me 11 hours to download Lion. Mumble, grumble.

    Meanwhile, Reaper has a download that is in the 5 MB range. Takes a few seconds to download. I can't make any arguments as to the quality of Logic versus Reaper, as I use them primarily to test my own plugins. Just that I love the download size of Reaper.

    The backwards compatibility issue, and the complexity of Logic, is a tough one. If you strip out or simplify things like the Environment, you will break backwards compatibility. However, these things are really hard to get running (I've tried in the past), and I wonder how many people actually use them. Something like max4live would be interesting, where it is an optional add-on, and can run complex things written by other people without needing to see how it works under the hood. I guess that a "GarageBand Pro" would be a pretty worthwhile product, but calling it Logic Pro X will lead to a world of complaints.

  • sjc

    Just for 'bloat' comparisons, I see that my Logic 7 app is 312MB and Logic 9 is 798MB. I've got my 2 Logic 1.6 floppies around here somewhere. L7 is still my fast and fave version, it took me a long time to come around to 9. Bigger is not always better.

  • Jonah

    Wouldn't apple update GB first, just like they did with imovie? Smaller project, less risk.

    The rumors that Mainstage is going to be spun out into even more of it's own product are super exciting and of greater interest to me. Improve the looper, add a MIDI looper, turn functionality from the environment into drag and drop like the arp, delay + other custom routings and add easy import into Logic for later on. Serious competition for Live. 

    @spinner for the way I like to work Logic and Cubase are roughly equal in terms of ease of use and all other DAWs I find more difficult. It's not like I started with Logic either. Different strokes.

  • T

    My speculation leads me to believe Apple has abandoned most of it's pro users. Why? Because pro users don't make Apple money. The masses make Apple money, and iOS devices that are dominating. This means everything gets "dumbed down" according to "pro" users. 

    Apple has not updated it's pro page in years. If this isn't a clear indication of Apple's focus then I don't know what else to say. 

    I've used Logic since the emagic days- and I welcome any change that can speed up or enhance my workflow. But if Apple changes Logic too much, there are other tools out there! 

  • http://noisepages.com/members/valis/ Valis

    I agree with Peter for the most part, and have said so in posts on CR's blog, GS and various Logic related forums. The rampant speculation fueled by vitriol against Apple in general imo, and while I fully agree that Apple made a misstep with FCX I think the biggest portion of that misstep was ditching FCS3/FCP7 sku's with the launch of FCX. FCX is obviously a counter move to Adobe's Mercury Engine driven Premiere 5.5, and while a lot of 'pro' features are missing the target for that was to get in-gpu 4:4:4 conversion working with HDSLR & Sony/Pany midlevel 'pro' videocameras working right away. That is exactly what they did, the fact that they touted it as something everyone needed to upgrade to immediately was a mistake, in the short term. As aje mentions, they recently took a step back and gave studios the ability to order FCP7 licenses again via phone sales, which at least shows that they're not oblivious to their misstep. Everything else Peter mentions here is correct too, the refresh of the codebase was necessary, FCP7 still does what Logic did before its 64bit update and just craps out with malloc errors once you've used up available ram. And the workflow with DSLR based footage is just awful, unless you decide to hang a drobo off every editing station to keep background transcodes speedy…and that's STILL not comparable to the in-gpu 4:4:4 upconversion of Premiere & FCX. I think the answer for most Pros there is just to hold off until features are matched or move, whatever you feel the need to do first. Personally I find it easier to log & transfer in Premiere CS 5.5 for the great upconversion and edit in FCP7 for the time being…

    Anyway this is about Logic, and I also agree that I see no reason to upset the Apple cart just for the sake of doing so. What they can do is optimize the codebase a bit now that they've made the UI changes needed for Cocoa full support (in v7/8) and 64bit support in 9. I see no reason to remove functionality that exists, for there's no reason to completely wipe & start fresh with the codebase. As for their developer support and AUVal errors, this has less to do with Logic per se and more to do with Apple's close lipped corporate culture and how they treat 3rd party devs that fall under their radar imo. Also for those that thing AUVal is horrible, they obviously don't recall the issues that LAP 4 & 5 had at the mercy of VST land.

    Anyway I'd be shocked if the Environment suddenly disappeared, though certain aspects of it (and the Automation arrange window) have been more & more obscured by the user-friendliness they keep pursuing so I can understand that perspective.

    What I would be happy to see (and someone expect) is a reduction in the bloat of 9, a streamlining of the codebase now that things have gone 64bit and maybe some optimization towards some of the multicore issues that still are present due to legacy issues combined with the modern dual buffer / live mode design. Most of those are purely 3rd party (Omnisphere, Jack/Soundflower and so on) and I don't hold Apple purely accountable for the changes needed between here and there but I'm sure they could improve things nonetheless.

  • foljs

    For Christ's sake, the "Garageband Pro / dumbed down" meme is getting out of hand.

    Enough with it already, it's just BS from people we no real knowledge of software engineering and UI design repeating internet gossip…

    Fact: Logic wasn't "dumbed down" when Apple bought it, it was SMARTED UP. It gained tons of features, and haven't lost any in the process. It got 64-bit, flex editing and a SANER workflow. Just because you were used to it doesn't make Emagic's 90s designed original Logic workflow and UI any good. It needed a rehaul, and it got it. And the next version will continue in that vain. For example, the Environment needs a lot of UI care, still.

    As for FCPX, neither did that became "iMovie Pro". What happened with it was Apple redid the codebase from nearly scratch to build a platform for the next decade or so, because the old, inherited, FCP code was getting unwieldy to adding new stuff (and it needed to make it Cocoa, 64-bit et al, too). The lose of features was inevitable –they couldn't build everything AND redo the thing from scratch at the same time. Anyone who has ever worked on a major programming project understands this (I'm a pro soft engineer by trade). Those features will be added in the versions to come, including multi-camera editing etc.

    (As for loading old projects, it just wasn't feasible (and/or practical) with the change of format. It's not just a matter of translating cut points and transitions to some footage into a new type, they would have to also include support for plugins used, automation, etc, which would be an enormous undertaking.) It's the same cries as when OS X 10.1 came out, and didn't have all of OS 9 features. Would you rather be using a patched-up, bloated to death, lipstick on a pig OS 9 today, or 10.7?

    So, Apple reworks FCPX in Cocoa FROM SCRATCH, and people dare say that Apple "abandoned the pro market"? They spend MONEY and ENGINEERING TIME for this. Would you be more content if they just piled some bloated code on top of a legacy codebase, like Adobe does, added a few features and called it a "new version"? 

    "In reality there isn’t much need for LP to cater for pro users anymore. The app has never been able to keep up with PT in recording studios"

    The market is not "recording studios" –of which we will see less and less in the future, since the music industry does not have that much money anymore for lush productions, and tons of music outside the Billboard Top-100 (and even inside it), is created mainly "in the box".

     

    The market is *artist's studios.

    And in there you can find TONS of Logic Pro.

    In fact, just check trade magazine interview, from Keyboard, to SoS, to Future Music and the overwhelming majority of artists use Logic to create upon (some rigged with PT).

    Compared to Logic Pro adoption in artist studios, PT is an insignificant niche. Now, this is mainly because of the need to have the specialized Digidesign HW. We'll see if the case will change, not that that is no longer an issue.

  • http://www.obri3n.com Tom O'Brien

    I hate to say it but reason has got the right idea with their SSL style mixer!

    I'd really like to see a more analog style mixer with eq and comp channel strips in logic so I don't have to spend a fortune on plugins to do the job and make a mess of my workspace.

  • http://www.lo-res.com Jeff Sepeta

    I spoke to the lead on Apple's Logic development team about a bug with Lion that resulted in 2 of my band's songs disappearing from the hard drive when I attempted to navigate through the folders. He hinted that Logic X will drop the environment, and I begged him to keep it because it's the only MIDI app that lets you route midi to midi to midi within your composition. that didn't sway him though.

  • andrewi

    The cat is out of the bag now, and despite the hype. The real facts are that LPX is lacking a large amount of the things that made the real pro’s use it… and many small things that annoy the hell out of the users that don’t need those features.

    Take the lack of the ‘same track with next MIDI’ option, the horrendous space inefficiency of the ‘Transport’ bar along the top, the inability to bind the old ‘caps lock keyboard’ to ANY shortcut (devastating for anyone who makes music on the go), let alone put it back where it was, the Library with it’s large shiny pictures that yet again eat into screen real estate with no purpose.

    If this was Garageband I would applaud the GUI and say it was the most innovative thing since sliced bread, but it’s not. It’s Logic. It’s for pros, and all these shiny bells and whistles obstructing my workflow are… annoying.