We have an updated, more complete and accurate story on the issue, including commentary from Avid. Read the full feature

In it, we look at the NASDAQ delisting, some ongoing concerns (SEC, DOJ, and a shareholder suit remain issues), but also Avid’s strategy and the response from the company on how they intend to move forward.

Restructuring efforts at Avid maker Pro Tools are far from returning faith in the company by the stock market.

Financial site The Street reports today on the state of the company’s stock. Most troubling, yesterday Avid received a letter from NASDAQ delisting the company from the stock exchange. As of today, trading of AVID was halted on NASDAQ. (This doesn’t mean you can’t still trade AVID stock; you have to do it via the Over-the-Counter market.)

The really significant issues here are cash flow and earnings, and Avid’s ability to report on their situation – and losing NASDAQ trading will only exacerbate the problem. TheStreet Ratings Team looked at losses and negative cash flow.

IMPORTANT CORRECTION: Without identifying them as such, it appears that The Street cited the most recent data from Avid – though that data is badly, badly out of date, as Avid Technology hasn’t filed quarterly results since third quarter 2012, a full year and a half ago. This means that the divestment of M-Audio, for instance, is not included in the analysis. While it is still troubling that that data is unavailable (and this is one factor among others that led to NASDAQ’s suspension), it means that this story very inaccurately described the picture. The reality is, we don’t know. A full retraction / update on Avid is awaiting official word from the company, who have not yet responded to requests for comment (though we expect they may soon). -Ed.

Why Avid (AVID) Is Falling Today [Shawn Ingram, The Street]

The Street cites worries about the company’s earnings health, its stock performance, and the missing filings that led to delisting. Ed.: statement clarified on 27 Feb.

There will certainly be implications for Pro Tools, Sibelius, and other Avid products if Avid’s business does not turn around. These are about more than just the technical quality of the products themselves. Maintaining a successful relationship with customers is dependent on running a successful business, and being able to make the investments in support and development that requires. Earnings represent in part the health of that relationship and the growth of the customer base. This is sometimes easier said than done, which is why many, many music product makers are not publicly-traded companies. But, to state the obvious, Avid can only be successful offering the products it makes if it has a successful business behind them.

Pro Tools, the product, is in many ways healthy. Plug-in makers have successfully supported the AAX plug-in format, the product is still widely used, winning Grammy awards for its users and technical awards for itself.

And the music products industry itself continues to grow; one thing The Street observes is that the loss in earnings at Avid is out of pace with the rest of the electronic products business, and the same could be said in regards to some of Avid’s direct rivals in music.

For that reason, I would expect Pro Tools to have a future, perhaps as an acquisition. But some sort of business change seems coming at Avid the company. For loyal Pro Tools users, that change might be welcome sooner than later.

Correction: An earlier version of this story incorrectly implied that research from The Street included 2013 earnings. As that data has not been reported, however, the data appears based on the last earnings filing, which is now a year and a half old.

  • Chad Clark

    My first thought is “Apple will buy it.” But then I think “Why would they do that?”

    • Bill

      I think universal audio should buy just the Pro Tools part of Avid

    • Chad Clark

      I tend to think Universal Audio is too small a company to fiscally absorb that kind of investment. But I might be wrong.

    • gunboat_d

      hmmmm…UA as a privately owned company that has already been through two incarnations might not want the headache. they’ve already expanded into interfaces with some success; why take over something as huge as PT and put themselves into direct competition with Apple, who they have a close relationship with and has enough money under the sofa to buy Universal Audio 6 times over.

    • http://pkirn.com/ Peter Kirn

      I think Apple would be loyal to their investment in Logic.

    • Chad Clark

      There’s no question of that. But I wonder whether it benefits Apple for Pro Tools to exist or whether it’d be better if it did not.

    • whiteblob

      apples business model is know geared toward the consumer market not professional

      on the other hand another big company like sony or roland, even Microsoft, but to be honest the company owe a lot of money and and the intellectual property rights on the software don’t add up to much since the technology is already out there.

      and whats the Avid brand worth if its market share in both its video and audio software adds up to a niche user market.

      …. makes grim reading

    • gunboat_d

      personally, i don’t think consumer versions of Acid/SoundForge/Vegas are long for this world under the Sony umbrella. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but i assume AV Software industry is as cut-throat as TVs and electronics. Particularly when companies like Adobe/Apple have the money to buy and shutter their competition. (still bummed about Macromedia)

      and Roland just offloaded Cakewalk to Gibson. so i doubt they’ll dip their toes back into that industry.

    • gunboat_d

      yes….nothing would be more loyal than to buy and wind down the leader of the market. Excellent

    • Luis Labrador

      Yes , like they were with the people that bought Shake from them and more recently Final Cut Pro , hahahahaha .

    • apoctwist

      They poured resources into rewriting Final Cut Pro. If they weren’t interested in the software they would have just axed it or let it languish with maybe a facelift (like Logic X). Those who were all up in arms when FCPX came out have now come back, because at the end of the day the software is actually good. Shake on the other hand was just sad all around. I have no idea why they bought them if all they were going to do was cancel the project.

      I think Apple had been working on something for Shake, took too long and had Nuke come in from the sideline, supported and originally developed by a Hollywood fx house. Apple saw that it ran on OSX and probably said fuck it, we don’t need Shake anymore.

      They probably haven’t dropped FCP just to spite Adobe. As long as Adobe behaves (releases on OSX without delays or any stupid platform differences, etc) Apple will continue to drag its feet, since as long as someone bought a mac they really don;t care if you use their software or not. It’s why they basically give it away at dirt cheap prices.

      If Protools were to go Windows only, Apple would make Logic a Protools competitor yesterday, as it stands they rather just give us Logic X instead.

    • Kechuan

      This would be a good one for Music Group/Behringer to go after. It would add to their portfolio nicely and fill in their gaps. No doubt they’d be able to afford it.

  • gunboat_d

    bomb factory, m-audio, sibelius, euphonix, and lots of other aquisitions were probably/definitely foolish.
    i worry about Gibson’s long-term health as well for the same reason: what are the chances that Gibson’s long and steady expansion-via-acquisition drag down the part of the company that is actually valuable?

  • spitzy

    Nobody wants pro-tools their pricing model makes it slightly expensive for average consumers to purchases it. Since music is going DIY from a production, creation, recording standpoint people are choosing alternative programs to pro tools.

    • gunboat_d

      Google, Adobe, and Microsoft offer large software suites as a cloud-based or subscription services. i wonder if we could see a similar shift in DAWs. The m-audio era was a dark, confusing time for PT; too many tiers, hardware tie-ins, dongles, etc. making PT hardware-dependent and perhaps subscription-based would be an interesting and profitable direction.

  • charlesmaynes

    AVID had a big management shakeup a year ago- they seem to working to correct the errors of the past- and actually going private would be a great thing for them. Public companies largely are more interested in pleasing their investors than their customers.

    • Herewegoagain

      It’s so funny to hear all these “producers” talking about using other programs because of plugins and virtual instruments and offline bounce and every other shortcut that has been eroding audio quality over the last decade and a half. Real instruments and real producers make the best recordings and that happens on tape or in ProTools. The workflows and audio integrity in the other programs are so backwards and insufficient. Anyone who disagrees is listening with their wallets and not their ears.

    • Jeff

      Are you speaking about the differences between a real and sampler-based piano? or synthesizers? Few would argue that a virtual soft-synth, even a state of the art analog modeled instrument Aalto, Diva or Monark sounds equally good compared to a high quality recording of real analog Buchla or MiniMoog. Still, there are instruments that simply are not available in hardware. If you are playing a sampler-based instrument like Alchemy, I’d argue they are far superior as plug-ins than as hardware.

      As for audio recording quality, editing features, etc, I believe that just about all modern DAWs sound world-class, especially with a high quality I/O connected.

      Can you be more specific about what you think is eroding quality?

    • Richard Michael

      don’t hold your breath…. lol

    • DPrty

      Actually it happens on tape or in Reaper.

    • Richard Michael

      Lol…. do you really believe that tripe?

  • Daniel Ottini Music

    The fallout from Avid (potentially) going out of business would be interesting to say the least…most people I know who have invested in Pro-Tools have done so because (in the words on one person) “you cannot be considered a Pro without it” (what do I know, I use Live/DP – guess I will always be an amateur). I really don’t understand how they can be losing money with the rabid following that they have (I thought for sure people wouldn’t stand for another new plug-in format). Perhaps Gibson will pick it up and make it a “lifestyle” brand – I would love to see the look on all those “pro” faces when its integrated with Sonar :-)

    • 2pro4u

      Wow, couple baskets worth of sour grapes you’re sitting on there. They’d probably be pretty happy looks tbh, people use it for it’s functionality in certain areas, not because they love it to bits (or are ‘rabid followers’ – lmao, spend 5 minutes on DUC if you want to see rabid), but if you don’t have the need for PT’s functions it’s not surprising you don’t understand why your friend said what he said.

    • Daniel Ottini Music

      Oh I understood perfectly what my friend was saying…he was looking for something to be “a pro” composer”, given what I have heard of the MIDI functionality of Pro Tools, more power to him (as you note, I would never know as I am not a “pro”)

      I hardly doubt most people would be jumping up and down and I hardly doubt that the same functionality could not be found in a different piece of software that traditionally did not have as much of a “barrier to entry” or a “cache”

      As for sour grapes…Huh????

    • Daniel Ottini Music

      I will concede, however, as Guy notes above, that it is probably more relevant to you if you are an Audio guy (which ain’t me or my friend) – at least until something else comes along.

  • toma

    As a former software developer and QA software engineer I can say that ProTools has been pretty much obsolete for a few years now. I have used just about every DAW out there and understand why Avid is losing money. The majority of new musicians come from our youth. They are smarter and more computer literate. They all know that there are better options like Ableton Live and Apple Logic for music production. And why shouldn’t they. They can get way more functionality and better usability for way less money than ProTools. No one cares about being compatible with big “Pro” studios anymore.

    • Nikolozi

      I couldn’t agree more. Older generation is hanging on to PT hard. None of my producer friends use Pro Tools. I mean, they didn’t even have offline bounce up until recent versions. I remember when I did Audio Engineering diploma at SAE 6 years ago, all the lecturers were touting how Pro Tools is an industry standard and how we should all buy a LE copy to get started. Most students used Ableton Live or Logic in their home studios.

    • tom

      As far as I know, the Pro Tools (previously Digidesign) division of AVID makes money, and has for years. It’s other parts of AVID that are failing, and the profits from Pro Tools are not enough to buoy up the losses.

    • eon1

      The hint is in the name.. it’s a tool for audio professionals, not beatmakers or producers. You’re trying to tell me you’d use Live over PT for video work, or a commercial mix with 100+ tracks? I use both, and prefer Live for most of my work – being both production and small mixes – but I consider PT a totally different beast and capable of far more in terms of actual multitrack recording, mixing, any ‘big jobs’ really. Not to mention the heap of super high quality plugs that only come in RTAS/AAX, not something your average producer wants or needs but something their mastering engineer certainly might. The illusion that PT is for the ‘older generation’ is likely propelled further by its lesser accessibility, higher price compared to other DAWs, as well as its “pro studio” image coupled with the whole idea that the ‘old’ music industry is going out the window with the digital music revolution or what have you. All that said, PT11 can suck me, I’m sticking with 10, and if I hadn’t had a free upgrade from 9 I’d be sticking with that too.

    • DPrty

      I would use Logic Reaper or even a Steinberg product for projects with a 100+ tracks any day of the week over Pro Tools …. and I do just that. The only thing PT had going for it over other DAW’s was descent automated control surfaces. The fact that you couldn’t even use Vst’s was a joke. Then there was the list of unfixed Buggy behavior and on top of that midi is a joke in PT. Then the proprietary interfaces was another problem not to mention the fact that when you went to the user groups all you found where professionals looking to jump ship because they had had it with PT. I also predicted what Peter has posted about here 12 months ago.

      Reaper frickin kills PT.

    • foljs

      “””he hint is in the name.. it’s a tool for audio professionals, not beatmakers or producers.””

      Well, what you’re missing is that those kind of professionals are a dying breed. Tons of studios are closing left and right.

      People make hit records now even on their laptop. Or they do 90% of the record in their home studio and 10% in a “proper” studio. And I’m not talking just electronic or small names either. Even huge bands and artists do so, including in rock music circles.

      So that doesn’t leave much headroom for pro tools. Not to mention that, compatibility and familiarity from studio engineers aside, it doesn’t have much over Logic, Studio One Pro, Cubase and the like.

      In fact, in Europe tons of studios prefer Cubase and/or Logic instead of Pro Tools (which is more of a US thing).

    • Ty Ford

      tons? quantify tons.

    • Ken Johnson

      Thousands of pounds.

    • James Y

      Studios may be closing, but every professional in Post that I know, weather in a studio or his/her own home uses ProTools – bar maybe two people who use fairlight.

    • jjsine

      thats coz they are sheep to brand names and marketing

    • James Y

      Not sure how you would qualify this statement…

    • Turbojugend

      The other thing to remember is yes, most post still uses Pro Tools, but they aren’t going out and upgrading every time a new versions comes along.

    • James Y

      Absolutely. 2 reasons:
      1) Things work well with whatever current version and the studio’s workflow. New versions introduce new bugs that have to be figured out, and workarounds found….on the level we are working with – that means time – and the potentially frustrated client if we don’t see the bug. PT 10 was a GREAT examples. Completely new automation code…and this meant some early versions did not correctly read our automation every time – and we found out by a client listening to a delivered mix asking why the music was hotter in this version then the one they approved. That was a stressful couple of months before Avid fixed that….

      2)Very high price of upgrade. PT11 HD upgrade is $600. PT11 does not work with the old TDM hardware, which means we could trade in our HD2 to HDX for $6K each room. This version still currently works with the old blue interfaces – though is not officially supported. This is only known from studios working with the old interfaces. But pretty soon that would also mean an interface upgrade, talking about another 4k per room. plus a sync i/o, for 2k per room…

      Now the studio I work at has 14 identical rooms…. even with the advances of 64bit plug ins and the multitude of hours I could save with offline bounce to check my shows LKFS just to have to tweak and check again, does the price justify those advances? Our studio’s idea was to upgrade to 10 and wait as long as we possibly could before upgrading again, since this next upgrade means a whole new system (and hopefully by the time we are ready, they are still around and will have figured out the whole thunderbolt thing so we can also invest in new macs….which of course adds a whole extra price tag).

    • Jim Sonic

      You dont have a clue what youre talking about, but i think you want to appear to know a lot. All youre doing is parroting things youve heard said before and you sound ridiculous. Trust me NOBODY is making hit records on their laptop. Try informing yourself before sounding like a whiny little idiot.

    • English Bob
    • jim sonic is gay

      Jim Sonic is a gay poop eating shitfag.

    • heinrichz

      The HD version is simply overpriced for most people and the native version is certainly not better sonically and in functionality than Logic or Cubase/Nuendo. Overall an elitist product that does not suit the needs of contemporary., democratized music making. And still some uninformed people are misled to buy into the hype of its superiority, that’s why i hope it will disappear.

    • Al Andrew

      You are clearly Deaf !

    • Drew

      I agree that Cubase is sonically better than pro tools. I never would have believed it but I switched to pro tools for a while and I can’t get the sounds to cut through the mix in pro tools but it comes easy with cubase, using the same techniques for mixing, of course.

    • jjsine

      Drew, you are clearly not deaf. As part of my studies I have to learn PT and each day I learn about it i start disliking it more and more as apposed to Cubase. Cubase for starters, depending on your processor it has no limits on the number of audio, midi and instrument tracks that can exist and be voiced in one project, it has 256 physical inputs and outputs though. More than enough for any big production. I keep seeing in my studies that Avid and it’s software and especially hardware is all about making money, not really for the best user friendly, intuitive, efficient and smooth work flowing DAW.

    • Esbin Adony Ramírez

      I’d disagree with the ‘obsolete’ part of your argument. I believe more of the newer producers are using Logic and Live, and rightfully so. Those DAWs were built based on MIDI not audio, like ProTools, however, it is still much easier to work as an engineer with ProTools, especially when you start talking about mixing out of the box, or a combination of both. It is much easier for me, 23 year old engineer, to go from studio to studio with a ProTools file, then Logic. It just doesn’t work that way. And the I/O feels much easier to configure in ProTools then Logic so when I want to sum though an SSL and then a few hours later, switch my mix so that I’m in my project studio so that I can access a lunchbox or a sum through another piece of gear. Much simpler in ProTools. And for there are so many clients that have brought old sessions from the 90s or 2000s that want to remake or take a certain file out or make a new mix, and guess which DAW they were using, yup, ProTools. So maybe at a project level, amateur level ProTools hasn’t been the main DAW, but for the industry across all markets, ProTools has been and will be the main DAW, at least until AVID does something horribly wrong, which seems like they are close.

    • Guy Sigsworth

      I think you’re confusing “youthful” with “soft synths”. Most metal and rock engineers and producers, including ones specialising in modern “djent”-type metal, are using Pro Tools at a very sophisticated level. I don’t know any metal producers using Ableton Live or Reason as their principal studio DAW, though quite a few use Nuendo (eg Meshuggah). I’ve never tried Nuendo, so I can’t compare it. If the Pro Tools platform disappears completely, it might be an option for me.

      BTW metal engineers are some of the best audio-edit ninjas in music. Many have developed spectacular AppleScript and QuicKeys shortcuts for Pro Tools, so they can speedily chop up, re-time and smoothly crossfade whole eight-minute multi-mic drum takes; including frenetic performances filled with 64th-note double bass drum patterns.

      I agree Avid’s marketing has been inept. Even in rock, where Pro Tools is more dominant, they tend to run promo features on worthy older artists like Tom Petty. No disrespect to Mr Petty, but would-be future rock producers are going to be more excited by features on younger bands. They’re the contemporaries of Savages or Warpaint, not Tom Petty.

    • http://pkirn.com/ Peter Kirn

      Has anyone done a feature on metal production and Pro Tools? I’d love to see that.

      And yes, I’m a great fan of what you’re doing, too.

      What Pro Tools has done over the years to be as popular as they are is phenomenal. But it’s not hard to see the business issue as separate from the user issue. You may have happy Pro Tools users who simply aren’t investing as much on an annual cycle in the hardware and software, and then you quickly have a business problem.

      I would hate to see Pro Tools get lost in this business crisis. I absolutely agree with folks hoping the company goes private or the DAW winds up in a healthy acquisition.

      We also don’t know how much of the drag is coming from Pro Tools or Avid. I focused on Pro Tools as it’s the product I know, and this isn’t a video production site. This is a huge variable, and something I should dig into for a follow-up.

      Though, frankly, I’d rather write a story on cutting-edge modern metal producers than I would one on what’s gone wrong with Avid’s business.

    • Bjorn Vayner

      “Sounds too digital!” – Nathan Explosion (Metalocalypse)

      Pro Tools is featured heavily in the Metalocalypse cartoon and pretty much any Brendan Small “making off” video.

      Just sayin :)

    • James Y

      The biggest problem with the business issue of Avid in my mind, is that since ProTools HD w/ hardware is such an expensive upgrade – Studios that rely on it usually wait, sometimes 4 or 5 versions before upgrading.

      That’s hard if your a cash strapped business hoping that your loyal users would upgrade to bring in that cashflow.

      This is especially true with the latest upgrade. They were so ‘smart’ with it as a cash flow thing, that most studios basically have to upgrade the entire rig. Computer, hardware, AND software. The downside to that is that most studios I know are waiting to upgrade. In fact, most studios I have to send sessions to are still using 9.

    • heinrich zwahlen

      With all due respect – and i totally understand that pro Tools is great for audio editing – i consider metal, however sophisticated it may be, a rather a dying genre as of today. Most significant new music is made using those soft synths that many metal folks so despise, with people using midi over audio along with hands-on controllers as musical instruments.

    • jjsine

      At the end of the day, I guess it’s really up to what you’re comfortable with. If you have been using a DAW and know it and like it, why not stick to it. It’s all about preference really.

    • VladanMovies

      Maybe they’d better have them musicians practice more and learn to play, instead. (A joke)
      BTW, cubase can crossfade and retime, too, just as, I guess, any other half decent DAW. (Not a joke)

    • James Y

      As a professional audio engineer, sound designer, mixer in the field of video games and post production, I, and the rest of the team I am a part of use ProTools every day. We have 14 studios running it. There is still not a piece of software that can work with audio with the ease protools does.

      It may not be the best composition software – though I have composed my fair share of tunes in it….but there are very few competitors in the ever growing post industry….

  • Robert0

    I’ve been a Pro Tools user for nearly 20 years, back in the old OS-pre-X days. I can race through huge VO editing jobs. i don’t care for the MIDI (a track out of record shouldn’t be receiving and playing MIDI input; no one else does) but for audio recording and editing I’ve never seen its like. But I’ve stopped updating due to their extraordinarily high upgrade prices – and I do understand they’ve decoupled it from hardware – and their seeming lack of emphasis on meeting the needs of us non-expensive hardware users. I continue to use version 8 for the basics and love it, but until AVID starts showing some love to the less wealthy among us, I have no plans to upgrade.

  • terrygrant

    Acknowledging that CDM is a site focused primarily on electronic music and is based in Europe, I’m not surprised at the lack of love in the comments for Pro Tools. Producers that work mainly ITB have myriad options for DAWs these days, and most of them are cheaper than PT and cater more directly to that type of workflow. Having said that, I can tell you that in the States, Pro Tools is far and away the leading DAW in professional recording studios. You simply won’t find many other options for digital recording in the commercial realm. There will be the occasional Nuendo system, or even the odd Paris rig still running, but PT is (and has been) the industry leader for digital audio at the pro/commercial level. The audio editing/manipulation in PT is unparalleled, and that probably accounts for a lot of it’s success in the non-electronic worlds.
    Avid made a few head scratching moves in the early 2000s, splintered it’s user base into too many sub-groups, and generally fostered the attitude that, while the software was indispensable, the experience of being an Avid customer was sometimes more frustrating than it was worth.
    Even if Avid were to fold (which I think we are faaaaar from seeing happen), Pro Tools would live on in some form, as there are simply too many professionals that need it to exist.
    My suspicion is that they probably always have made the majority of their profit on hardware systems (Venue, Icon, TDM, HD, editing bays, etc), and when they finally decided to decouple the PT software from the hardware, everyone stopped buying the audio interfaces. I know that at one point there was a lot of talk about the lackluster sales of HDX line. (It also didn’t help that the drivers for the new M Box line were horrid, and Avid had decided by that point to do away with everything between M Box and the HD line of interfaces.)
    Digidesign never struck me as a software first kind of company, and Avid seems even less so, so I’m a little concerned as to what all this means internally for the company that makes my favorite DAW.

    • http://pkirn.com/ Peter Kirn

      Hang on a second, the readers aren’t based in Europe – the largest share are in the US. (And I’m from Kentucky, technically speaking, and lived 15 years in New York.)

      These are all good points, but let me correct your first sentence. “Acknowledging that this is a comment thread on the Internet, I’m not surprised at the lack of love in the comments for Pro Tools.” 😉

      I think you’re onto something with hardware revenue.

      Remember, too, though – Avid and Pro Tools aren’t synonymous. I made the connection primarily because I think Pro Tools matters to people who may read this site. Worth considering:
      – Avid sold off M-Audio, a major revenue center.
      – Avid’s outsourcing of development on Sibelius led to a mass exodus of the people who built that product – including the people who had built up all-important personal relationships with the education market. (and there may be parallels on other teams)
      – I frankly don’t know what the revenue is for their various flagship video products.

      My sense is that the hostility toward Pro Tools is where it always has been – expensive lock-in investments have made even some loyal users quick to gripe about it, as has the attitude that it’s the only professional choice.

      It’s not the only professional choice. It just isn’t. I think it deserves its popularity because the third-party ecosystem they’ve built, and the editing and mixing interface itself – as you say – are very, very good.

      But to say that Cubase/Nueno, SONAR, Logic, and DP aren’t doing the job in professional audio markets outside electronic music? It just isn’t true. They may be a fraction of what you encounter in studio environments, but you can talk to people in everything from film/TV composition and sound production to classical recording and find some users who are very happy with these alternatives. It doesn’t take away from the industry leader. But it does suggest the industry leader *has competition*. And that’s significant, as it means that this situation is one to watch.

    • terrygrant

      Fair play, Peter. I almost left the Europe bit out entirely, as I didn’t want to cause this kind of misunderstanding. 😉 I only mentioned it as a way to acknowledge whatever differences there may be between the US and Europe, as I was under the impression that PT never had quite the same stranglehold on the commercial/post market over there.

      I never meant to imply that Pro Tools was the only professional choice, but rather that it is so ingrained in the pro studio/post production market here in the States that it would be a major issue if it were to disappear.

      I also don’t think I ever said that Cubase/Nueno, SONAR, Logic, and DP aren’t doing the job in professional audio markets outside electronic music, but maybe you weren’t referring directly to my comments there.

      The gear you use doesn’t make you professional. Your attitude, your dedication to the art and craft, and what you do with the tools you have available, do.

      Actually, I guess technically speaking, getting paid for what you do with the tools you have available makes you professional, so who really cares who used what to make which record? Your bank doesn’t, the girlfriend certainly doesn’t, and I’d imagine no taxman ever cared that you paid your taxes with a check you got from a record you made on Logic, rather than Reaper.

      Man, the internet is exhausting. 😉

      Much respect

    • terrygrant

      I should mention too, that while the thought of PT being sold off to a (perhaps) smaller company that will treat it with care seems desirable, the inevitable period of adjustment and potential disruption(s) in R&D don’t exactly fill me with joy.

    • James Y

      ” Avid sold off M-Audio, a major revenue center. ”

      Never made any sense to me. They complained that it wasn’t making them money – but all of my ex-coworkers at Washington Music center were always scratching their heads, knowing it had the MOST revenue of any of their lines…

  • itchy

    would be great if we can grab the audio editing out of protools, put it into ableton live and throw the rest away. i like protools but other daws have my interest. it is still a solid program and thank it for many years of enjoyment. rip

    • Da Ledgendary

      Try Studio One

    • kickinthedoors

      Grab the audio editing, the waveform representation and shortcuts.

  • Guy Sigsworth

    I really hope Pro Tools survives. I own full versions of Logic, Ableton Live and Reason. All are great programs, in their different ways. If I’m in a writing session, wanting to arrange lots of soft synths and virtual instruments into a song accompaniment in a hurry, I’d probably choose Logic or Reason. When I use computer sequencing live, I choose Ableton Live (plus MainStage 3 for my keyboards). But I can only mix a rich, complex, multi-layered recording to the obsessive sample-accurate level of detail I want, and I can only edit audio to the obsessive sample-accurate level I want, in Pro Tools. I love Logic, Ableton and Reason. But they don’t come close to Pro Tools in those two specific areas.

    All of the top pop radio mixers, like Serban Ghenea, Spike Stent and Tony Maserati, use Pro Tools. They’re not just chosing it because of some vapid audio-bling gear snobbery, like nouveau riche oligarchs buying Rolex rather than Swatch watches to tell the time by. They’d be hard pressed to replicate many of their coolest chops on Logic or Ableton Live – great as those programs undoubtedly are.

    Avid (both video and audio) have been squeezed by two Apple products: Final Cut Pro and Logic. Apple can afford to sell both programs much, much cheaper than their Avid equivalents – maybe even cheaper than they cost to make – because they drive sales of Apple computers. Their copy protection system is the Apple computer they’re written for. Avid can’t compete with that.

    • Da Ledgendary

      Try Studio One Pro. Its like the best of Pro Tools and Logic in one program, plus it has a built-in mastering suite where you can master and sequence an entire album, import album art and info, and create ddp images. And you can have multiple sessions open at once. Pro Tools can’t do that.

    • Klemen Kotar

      +1 on that. I was using Cubase 6 and PT9, sold both and use S1 2.6 exclusively.

    • Blob

      @ Guy Sigsworth – you are correct, Apple’s strategy has definitely
      narrowed Avid’s market – but note @tom’s perspective (a few comments below) – there is indeed
      a second factor which is that Avid’s other products are probably also bringing
      the company down.

      Also, the M-Audio debacle 10 years ago and the MIDI editing and GUI issues did not endear them to potential consumers – myself included. At the time these issues pushed me towards Cubase, Logic and Live.

    • Guy Sigsworth

      @Blob – Totally agree with you. Avid bought Sibelius, the leading music scoring program. Since movies are mostly sound-mixed in Pro Tools, the takeover seemed to make good sense. But Avid have not been great stewards of Sibelius. They fired all the key Sibelius staff; who’ve now been re-hired by Steinberg, where they’re developing a rival program.

      There are two big deterrents to the wider uptake of Pro Tools 11: it’s too expensive, and there’s too much compatibility faff.

      Avid products are way over-priced for what the current market will bear. They’re like Synclavier in the era of the Akai sampler. They have to get real about price.

      And there’s the faff factor. Even if you do have the cash to buy a brand new Pro Tools 11 HDX system, Avid don’t make it easy for you. You buy your new Mac Pro, but Avid haven’t sorted out the thunderbolt/PCIe card issue. So you have to buy a chassis to put the cards in. But the chassis is as noisy as the engine room of the Titanic. So you have to buy or build a soundproofed enclosure for the chassis…

      Avid’s engineers need to figure out a way to put all hardware additional to the computer into a single, low-noise box with thunderbolt connectivity. And they need to do it soon.

    • http://pkirn.com/ Peter Kirn

      Absolutely – this to me is a bit stunning. Building a set of impressive Thunderbolt-based solutions could help Avid see new growth. They might even win over some users of other tools, if the solution were correct. (Yes, maybe even the “EDM” people Pro Tools users are dismissing here. I’m, um, not exactly a great fan of the burgeoning EDM producer markets in Europe and the US. But they seem like they’re spending money on production tools.)

      But Avid hasn’t done it. MOTU and UA have demonstrated it’s possible to produce excellent products. Now is the do-or-die point for Avid to cater to those users.

      And since by definition these are the people who spent money on the latest-and-greatest Apple gear, they’re a ripe market.

    • Jeff

      @peterkirn:disqus When you say “I’m, um, not exactly a great fan of the burgeoning EDM producer markets in Europe and the US. ”

      Sorry for the tangent here, but when you say “market”, do you mean the music itself, or the composer/musician creating this genre or the industry supporting this music? I initially thought you might be critical of the musical genre which is fine, but musicians making music seems a bit of an odd focus.

      Do you believe there is something fundamentally different about the activities of the EDM producer markets than say the markets supporting hip hop, or even more experimental, underground or hybrid styles?

    • Al Andrew

      Apple need to buy Avid !!!!

    • heinrichz

      Avid has nothing that Apple needs and Avid is not a threat to Apple and will go out of business eventually all by itself.

    • Drew

      Apples strategy is flawed in that it is incompatible with Windows which shuts them off from 99% of the computer users market. I have used Cubase for around 10 years and it caters to me better as an audio engineer. Pro Tools has always done something really stupid in their software because they are complacent as the industry standard. I also say the sun is setting for Apple unless they want to stop selling proprietary computers and be a software company.

    • Dave

      You do realize Apple could buy any of the companies discussed in this article or the comments with money it finds in its couch, right? Apple is the only computer company experiencing growth. It has profit margins other companies would kill for–who cares if you’re only 5% of the worldwide market when you’re making all the money in that market? Not to mention that Apple and Samsung literally make all the money there is to be had in the smartphone business these days. Whether or not this will hold for perpetuity is, of course, subject to the markets and their business acumen. But the “sun is setting for Apple” ignores all evidence to the contrary.

    • Blob

      As far as Apple is concerned I disagree for two reasons:

      1) Apple’s PC market share is actually closer to 13% worldwide http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2647517
      So they are not a smaller player n the PC market at all, even though their PC market share shrunk last year.

      2) You also cannot only look at PC general sales numbers. Most people buy Windows-based PCs. However, we can safely say that roughly 50% musicians who play live use Macs because they are generally stable and crash less. When Apple bought one of the most popular DAWs (Logic) they knew they would be able to lock people into their platform to a certain extent.

      Therefore, the strategy is not that flawed. The sun is hardly setting for Apple as far as audio software is concerned. They also don’t seem to have any interest in becoming a software-only company they always wanted full control over the production chain and will want to maintain a grip on their hardware.

      Having said that, there is an argument for cross-platform software like Cubase and Live, which have catched up to Logic and will certainly make a dent as Windows based PCs become more stable (Windows 7 was a big jump forward). I don’t think Apple is going down just yet, but they are facing increasing competition. Personally I use an Apple laptop when I play live, but I also have a backup Asus PC. I’ve found that Windows machines are catching up in terms of performance, and since Apple machines are so overpriced, I might switch to Windows only in the near future.

      As far as ProTools is concerned, I agree that they became a bit complacent. The problem is that for too long they relied on established studios locked into the platform, but over the past decade the situation clearly changed, with new producers adopting cheaper, cross-platform solutions.

    • chaircrusher

      Uhh…. “musicians who play live use Macs because they are generally stable and crash less.”

      I love bold assertions of facts completely free of any supporting data. It might be the case that 15 years ago Windows was a less reliable platform, but it certainly is no longer the case. And this whole “Macs are more reliable” thing is self-hypnosis by Mac owners. I’ve certainly seen Macs crash on stage, more than once. And all my sibs and my 83-year old mom are big Mac fans and every few months one of them has some issue that has them camping out at the Apple store waiting for a ‘genius’ to figure their shit out. And yes, that’s anecdotal evidence, but anecdotal evidence beats no evidence.

      Bottom line, depending on computers to be 100% reliable is dumb. If you play live and don’t have your shit backed up and a fallback plan for equipment failure, you will get burned. Even if your computer works perfectly, you could leave it in a cab or someone could steal it.

    • Aaron Zilch

      Well the fact of the matter is that Apple has always prioritized audio and midi in it’s OS. And that OS was rewritten pretty much from the ground up with OSX. Isn’t windows still running on an OS from the 70’s underneath all the bells and whistles? Also play testing software or hardware on a Mac is a much more definitive process since the configurations are fairly standardized.

      Yeah, overpriced a bit, but from personal experience the reliability, longevity, and customer service come close to justifying it. If your PC hard drive burns out 2 years after you bought the machine you are SOL afaik. With a Mac and Applecare I’ve gotten it replaced with all parts and labor covered.

    • Blob

      Late reply here.

      I’m not making any “bold statements”, and, just like yourself, I am also using anectodal evidence – i.e., take a look at live performances from professional artists like

      Nine Inch Nails





      or Radiohead or whatever. Macs are being used for a reason and it’s not just because they look cool.

      A lot of professionals artists also use Windows or Linux machines, I’m sure.

      Now, I’m not doing PR for Apple or anything. I dislike Apple’s mobile devices and their App Store aggressive lock-in strategy
      which makes the whole 1990-2000s “Microsoft is Evil” mantra seem
      ridiculous at best.

      But as far as personal experience is concerned, I have used Windows computers for almost 2 decades and I have a second laptop, Windows-based, that serves as a backup machine if anything goes wrong and which has been used in a couple of concerts and for home recording. I am pretty well aware of performance and stability issues. They are real and they are important in a live situation.

      Regarding Macs, let’s just say I enjoy playing with a system that has crashed during a concert *one single time* in a 5-year period; boots up quickly; and doesn’t require me to restart my audio applications every time a MIDI / USB device has to be reconnected for some reason (Windows still has issues with this one).

      Not sure about the self-hipnosis thing, I’m just reporting my experience here.

      Can you get similar results with Windows or Linux computers? Of course, get yourself a high-end PC and keep your system as clean as possible from non-music applications and don’t mess up your drivers. Like I said in my post, the past few years have demonstrated that Windows is catching up in terms of performance and stability (if it hasn’t already) and I’m considering switching to Windows in the near future because of Apple’s pricing policies.

    • Alex

      Amazing producer Guy Sigsworth? Big fan. Sorry, carry on.

    • http://pkirn.com/ Peter Kirn

      Don’t forget Adobe and Steinberg, etc. And they do this without selling computers.

    • foljs

      “””They’d be hard pressed to replicate many of their coolest chops on Logic or Ableton Live – great as those programs undoubtedly are.”””

      Why? Any particular function those are missing? Esp. Logic?

      From what I know it was the opposite. Pro Tools didn’t have decent MIDI editing, it didn’t have freezing, it didn’t have PDC, and other stuff.

      So what would they be hard pressed to replicate? (A concrete example).

    • nudephotomusic

      Multiple playlists per track, shuffle editing, both of which are great for comping multiple takes into one on a single track (absolutely cake in PT, much more fiddly in Logic, not really doable in Live until v9 without using multiple tracks, and PT still has better region x-fade options. Routing and busing (to integrate hardware) is much simpler. Better latency compensation when routing in & out. Better sync options for video. Compatibility with industry formats like AAF/OMF. And its pretty easy to get or create patchname files for PT (something that seems impossible post-Sounddiver in Logic and has never been possible in Live).

      I’ve used Logic since the mid 90s, used and taught Ableton since v1.0, and used PT professionally since the mid 90s too. Worked at Digidesign for a couple yrs too in the early 2000s.

      Currently enjoying working with Presonus Studio One. Fantastic DAW, very professional, and also a great dev team who has been extremely available and responsive with questions and suggestions.

    • heinrich zwahlen

      Listening to you, i hope it survives too, because there certainly is no need to go changing for some of those people you mentioned. And while obsessive editing can yield great results no doubt, it is a niche of sorts and does not justify giving an application the status of an industry standard.

    • Fritz Gillis

      Heinrich — your statement seems a little green. Go to Billboard 100. Listen to songs. 100 out of 100 of those songs have been edited in post. I would assert that almost all of them have touched ProTools at some point.

      You cannot comp vocals, drum takes or get that sample accurate sound without investing in an HD level rig…And the only two programs that are going to give that experience to you are ProTools and Nuendo (I currently don’t know any big players using StudioOne…But some of you who are mentioning it seem to also understand why ProTools is so popular among Audio Engineers so I will bring it up in my comment)

      I make all my music in Ableton and Reason, and I love the NI plug-ins. But when it comes time to mix, I am giving it to someone with an HD Rig, UAD Box and a summing mixer with AT LEAST 16 i/0.

      If I am going to track live, I’m getting together with someone who has some 1073s, APIs or the like, and has a stash of BA mics that have recorded every hit record you and your mother and your grandmother have been listening to since the DAWN OF TIME.

      ProTools is a great tool, as are the other DAWs. AVIDs failure has very little to do with this.

    • Richard Michael

      Is Teddy Reilly BIG ENOUGH??? STUDIO ONE.

  • Peter Aaron Fineberg

    as an industry professional i cannot live without it. i mix music, master for television, and mix documentary films. any negativity towards avid and pro tools is not form users. its from people using cheaper alternatives and thinking they have arrived. i can use every DAW, and literally have. i need pro tools to live, to work, to create. i am on pt 11. it makes my dual 8 core scream to death. i have an apogee symphony running through the pcie and all SSDrives. logic is nice and ableton is a nice performance software for edm. lets be realistic. its not snobbery. its my lifes work, since pt4.

    • http://pkirn.com/ Peter Kirn

      I don’t doubt this. There are two groups of complaints I’ve heard over the years (seriously, back to the 90s):

      1. Pro Tools users who are dissatisfied with the company’s business practices or support. (And to say this group doesn’t exist – come on, every DAW has this group; the only variable is size.)

      2. Users of other DAWs who are either frustrated with Pro Tools advocates telling them their choice isn’t valid or simply passionate about their decision.*

      *#2 includes some veterans of group #1.

      But the reason people using any DAW are so passionate is that they depend on the tool for their creativity. And that matters. And I don’t doubt that there are many, many people who are impacted by the business health of Avid.

      Pro Tools to me, as I say, is a healthy product. I’m not convinced about the state of the business around it.

    • Daniel Ottini Music

      I think Peter hit the nail on the head here and did it more succinctly than I ever could!

      I for one fall into the #2 camp – unfortunately this often means that I get accused of “Sour Grapes”, which seems to translate into “You can’t afford it (to be pro) so you slag it”, which couldn’t be further from the truth (how many people on this list own Modulars for god’s sake – you can easily rack up more on a Eurorack than a Pro Tools system!). The truth of the matter is that many of us who are predominately MIDI based don’t view it as a viable alternative (perhaps that means we fall into the “Electronic Musician” camp – I, for one, am happy to pitch my tent there, though for most people that would mean I do EDM :-)). It’s as simple as that – so why the snobbery on some of these posts – “you don’t use Pro-Tools, so you wouldn’t understand” – where have I heard that argument before: The Netherlands, 1637 – “the value of tulip bulbs are worth 10 times more than what they are selling for…” :-)

    • http://pkirn.com/ Peter Kirn


      3. Ex-Avid employees

      (which, at the rate that the company has lately laid off, spun off, and outsourced staff, is a big group… and, um, might be a disproportionately-large group on this comment thread, I suspect)

    • B. C. Thunderthud

      “you can easily rack up more on a Eurorack than a Pro Tools system!”

      This is a terrible argument. When you build a recording studio of the type that professional musicians will pay competitive rates to record in your investment in Pro Tools and the hardware to run it are a very small fraction of your investment. If you’ve invested more in your computer than in microphones you are not a professional in the field that people are discussing in this context and you probably don’t need Pro Tools.

      You may be a fantastic and professional artist in your own right but IMO your opinions on how people who genuinely are in that business should operate are, to put it nicely, poorly supported.

    • Daniel Ottini Music

      I have no doubt that PT has it’s place in a “proper” recording studio – the few of them that are left – but increasingly many people (for good or bad) are using home studios (I think there is likely some support for this – lets compare the number of proper studios 5 years ago in any given town to the number today?). Perhaps this is focused on the “Electronic type” artists, but perhaps not…

      But really this is a discussion about a “Pro” Tool, isn’t it and not about the future of recording studios…so let me sum it up this way: you are in the “Business” of selling the use of a tool/space/service to artists, I am in the “Business” of making music – horses for courses as they say…its possible we have different objectives.

      But let me clarify further the Modular argument – it was not an “either/or” argument – I was just pointing out that the cost barrier of Pro Tools does not exist for many artists – they could afford it, but choose not to buy it for whatever reason…My point was that the fact that some people would rather spend more on a Modular (substitute “Grand Piano” instead of “Modular” if it makes you feel better) does away with the “You can’t afford it (to be pro) so you slag it” argument or as you (seem to) so subtly re-state it, Pro-Tools is for “professional musicians” and used by ” …people who genuinely are in that (music) business”

      The rest of us just wouldn’t understand 😉

    • Daniel Ottini Music

      You know, replying to this thread has reminded me why I don’t usually reply to these threads…the time is better spent working on Music!

      With all due respect to anyone else who wishes to “bait” me, I will no longer be responding…I think I proved my point – talk amongst yourselves :-)

    • B.C. Thunderthud

      I don’t mean the (music) business, I just mean a particular segment of it. The “you can’t afford it” argument is actually a much worse one than yours, you are correct IMO in not wanting or needing Pro Tools (and I don’t use it either for similar reasons) but I think there are better counter-arguments.

      Mainly I think you* should acknowledge that there are people whose needs are very different than yours or mine.

      * and equally, anyone advancing similar arguments.

    • Daniel Ottini Music

      Hey Thunderthud – I am going to break my own silence just to reply to you :-).

      I agree that “Pro Tools” the app has it’s place in the world – it would be ignorant of me not to know that it is widely used in Hollywood, where many composers work in Cubase/DP/etc. and then mix down the final product in PT. This however is likely more due to “standardization” and “tradition” than anything else – and one wonders how tightly the glue is with these two qualities (i.e. Standardization/Tradition) that PT can withstand the current troubles that Avid is having. It is very common to be concerned about the viability of a software vendor (even in non-musical contexts) and consider the “Plan B” should the situation shift (as an aside, I just saw an interesting documentary on the rise in digital film shooting in Hollywood and there was much resistance initially – now it is commonplace). The question is how long before some other “PT Killer” gets considered seriously…by all accounts PT is not unique in it’s functionality and all it takes is a few “mavericks” (this is what happened with digital film) to break with “tradition”…Avid as a company cannot just hang on to “Status Quo” – look at Ableton with the oncoming Bitwig – competition (price and feature differentiation) is common to all but the most unique products (moon rocks anyone?) and, by all accounts, PT is not immune.

      As you note – the “you just are not a pro ’cause you don’t use Pr-Tools” argument is a weak one – just as the “I use Pro Tools therefore I am a Pro” argument…if there was one outcome that I would wish in all of this is that both those statements become laughable by all who state such positions – everybody should be able to choose their poison with out ridicule. The end work is what matters.

      Best wishes to you Thunderthud – the studio business is undergoing a lot of transition – here is hoping that your “room” is always full and your year is prosperous :-)

    • DPrty

      Yes but could your life’s work be better if you used Reaper.

  • Boots

    Just so you guys know, Pro Tools still rules the school in Hollywood. For music production there are other more reasonably priced options that are great. But I can tell you first hand that the sound for every single movie that you see was edited, and more often than not, mixed using Pro Tools.

    • Dave

      That doesn’t tell us much. It’s true, Hollywood’s post world is heavily Avid-centric–but that’s largely irrelevant to Avid’s success or failure at this point. Those post houses invested tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars into kit, so until they can afford to replace all that, they’re locked into an ecosystem even if it’s rotting from underneath them. Speaking from recent experience, trying to get a bunch of PBS editors to switch from Avid 5 to 6 was disastrous–it took three more days of training than people thought and set back projects massively. That’s a failure of the editors, the software, or both–and whatever the reason, that’s not a good situation for Avid’s continued relevance.

      Thus far, it isn’t entirely clear whether top-tier “pro” software can survive against feature-parity software that’s far cheaper (are you really getting your money’s worth from a $75,000 Flame workstation compared to a $10,000 specced-out PC or Mac with Creative Cloud installed for $20 a month?) When those post houses are forced to upgrade, Avid might not be around for their business.

    • Boots

      My post was simply to inform those who may not know how heavily Avid products are used professionally, particularly in post-production audio, film and video editorial and mixing. Most of the posts I was reading seemed to be from people using Pro Tools for home use. In that regard, yes, there are other options available. I don’t know much Media Composer and the video side of avid. But as far as Pro Tools goes, the advances that they have made with HDX undoubtedly blow any other programs out of the water. You can do on one system what use to take 3 or 4. Of course it comes at a steep price but nothing else is nearly as powerful

    • heinrichz

      Well from what i understand by now ‘Hollywood’ is pretty much a dying business model too, with profits of the studios dwindling in a big way…it is no longer the only center of the universe for sure. Btw. Dubspot electronic music school is opening in Hollywood this summer, not sure if PT is part of the curriculum at least we are not teaching it in NYC. The HD version makes sense for mixing and audio editing and that’s not worth the money for aspiring producers that mostly want to compose with midi controllers and instruments by companies like Ableton and NI or use programs like Logic or Cubase for mixing, mastering.

  • Pro Tool User.

    Avid did a few things to make enemies out of their faithful, Charging Pro Tools HD 7 customers $2500 to upgrade to 10 or 11 is just foolish, I started to look and found other solutions, mainly stay on 10 and then use a UA box. They are competing against themselves while trying to get people to switch to AAX. They should have made it easy to get to 10 and 11. Cheap upgrade, then fast adoption, then more plugins. You are then the standard. Also not offering a producers pack for 11 nor a stand alone version of software because they want to tie it into a hardware purchase also, dumb. They say its because they want to maintain the integrity of the performance of the software, yet if you have a producers pack from 10 you can get PT11 hd without hardware? Makes no sense. And crippling your software and holding extra tracks and input monitoring hostage for the upgrade to 11HD, try doing that for less than 5 grand, only makes me hate them more. But what really sucks is you need Pro Tools, If you want to be employed, have a career mixing music or post then you are tied to Pro Tools. When they sell it off I hope the new owners learn. Also I saw S6 at NAMM cheap, flat, ugly looking. D-Control just looks better, it has/had a great style. Look under a S6 and see all those cat 5 cables connecting all those cheap modules. Bad show. Horrible engineering for 160K. They let a ton of their R&D go and try to sell us a song thats its customizable. Nope they just are looking at another way to squeeze their faithful!

    • Blob

      “Charging Pro Tools HD 7 customers $2500 to upgrade to 10 or 11 is just foolish,” bloody hell I’d forgotten about that. Yep, that also didn’t help. Another reason why a lot of people from my generation never got into ProTools – the pricing was just ridiculous.

    • cmon,it’s how we all started..

      “The pricing was just ridiculous”.. you mean, it’s really hard to crack? :p

    • James Y

      only thing I disagree with is that in my opinion, the S6 is super awesome looking, and silky smooth to work on. Came from the Euphonix acquisition – not the avid d-control side…

  • Blob

    Even though I am personally not a fan of ProTools, this situation is worrisome. As an electronic musician, Ableton Live, Logic and Cubase are my tools of choice, and you can achieve professional, industry standard results with these suites. While Live is certainly geared towards performance, Logic or Cubase – with the right plug-in arsenal – can do a perfectly good job at all stages of composition production, including mastering.

    However, I realise that ProTools is not just a case of “old habits die hard” – despite some shortcomings (GUI, MIDI, hardware locking which lasted until recently), it is still a great option for studio recording, mixing and mastering. All of the albums I’ve played on were mixed and mastered with Protools at the studio. It’d be a terrible situation if studio owners were suddenly faced with hundreds of projects locked into a dead platform overnight.

  • gremmie69

    this is not good news – Avid picture editing systems and Protools sound editing systems are the worldwide standard for motion picture and TV post-production. If they go down – there will be a digital dark age where there is are no standards and it will be technical chaos similar to what happened when the industry switched from analog to digital.

    • Jimbob

      On the contrary, Avid has done what it can to nuke any existing standards and replace them with its own proprietary versions wherever it can. From encrypting PT session files to refusing to release EuCon to hardware manufacturers, they’ve made their own walled garden and it’s backfiring on them now.

    • Richard Michael

      Everything will be fine… Digital Dark Age My Ass!

  • Aaron

    only thing outside protools they had going from was m-audio, but they dragged that name through the mud then sold it off to someone else.

    • Aaron

      *for them*

  • DCee

    Once they left the home studio market high and dry, AVID has not been the same. Sure, they have the film, TV, and big budget music companies siding with Pro Tools, but the competition is getting stiff with other companies starting to learn how to make their products sound great and make it easy to access for the project and home studios. AVID is still gonna make money from Hollywood and post production, regardless. However, for them to expand, they need to reach back to what helped them become a juggernaut.

  • Ish

    Thats what its come down to. More Beat makers and less Engineers.

  • George

    Pro Tools definitely its one of the best editors and actually the algorithm summing is better then Logic for example,Logic has a problem with low mids they always sounds dull whatever you use.But yes the pricing method of Avid is just wrong very wrong so that’s why they see this results also this AAX format did lot of problems for the other software developers pushing them to release such a versions because costumers of Avid can use this format i find that very stupid move from them !

  • Sven

    Maybe Protools work, maybe…. maybe all this axx is great and fine superiorr… and i can’t hardly say something about the Wallstreet Buissness….I All i know: i will never buy Avid again. I bought an mbox pro cause of the big reputation this company HAD. I never experience such a bad support from the Side of Avid…Let me say: Sometimes something gets broken, and this is not a big act. Send in and they repaire it. Normal, happen less in my life…..But what i experience with avid was… it is a shame when the Hardware come more broken back from avid repaire than i send it in. And what broken? DSP, Firewire. they forget cables and software, there were hardware components flipping in the box, they GLUE!!! a Controller i did not BROKEN, HE WAS FINE WHEN I SEND IT IN. They are not able to programm the DSP Chip right, they are not able to write code which support the newest Apple OS updates. They say don’t work your Hardware with new Apple os updates. For what i pay????… after 4 Month sending it back and forth my Dealer and i say f**K off and they pay me a refund. THE DEALER PAY ME A REFUND NOT AVID ! the mbox is not cheap. My Dealer told me there are more and more complaints about AVID.
    RME and MOTU are able to do all i ask for. Mostly Hardware broke not down and the Driversupport is excellent. After buying a new Audiointerface by Motu i realize with what bad avid product i was working all time, cause all Troubles were gone.
    So i don’t know if they make this crap with the stuff that costs 10000 of $…. They say they are a pro audio brandmark… when this is Pro… i don’t know. I don’t know if the Complaints by the Users are in connection with the Wallstreet bizz… but it should be like this… And by the way: read the AVID Forums and what they have to tell about the mbox…. after this experience i can not recommend to buy avid to everybody. DON’T DO IT. When this is the reason for the NASDAQ Failure i can hardly understand this very good… you can not “play” with the Users. All i want is to make Music and not to deal with such problems…. And finaly i have to say: It was like for others not a surprise to read this articel, it complete a picture avid set in my mind. It is sad when people will loose jobs and i’m the last one i want this. But i think the Problems are housemade. Otherwise i would write real nice stuff about this company and that it must survive…… this is what avid teach me: don’t buy avid products !

  • sven

    Maybe Protools work, maybe…. maybe all this axx is great and fine
    superiorr… and i can’t hardly say something about the Wallstreet
    Buissness….I All i know: i will never buy Avid again. I bought an mbox
    pro cause of the big reputation this company HAD. I never experience
    such a bad support from the Side of Avid…Let me say: Sometimes
    something gets broken, and this is not a big act. Send in and they
    repaire it. Normal, happen less in my life…..But what i experience
    with avid was… it is a shame when the Hardware come more broken back
    from avid repaire than i send it in. And what broken? DSP, Firewire.
    they forget cables and software, there were hardware components flipping
    in the box, they GLUE!!! a Controller i did not BROKEN, HE WAS FINE
    WHEN I SEND IT IN. They are not able to programm the DSP Chip right,
    they are not able to write code which support the newest Apple OS
    updates. They say don’t work your Hardware with new Apple os updates.
    For what i pay????… after 4 Month sending it back and forth my Dealer
    and i say f**K off and they pay me a refund. THE DEALER PAY ME A REFUND
    NOT AVID ! the mbox is not cheap. My Dealer told me there are more and
    more complaints about AVID.
    RME and MOTU are able to do all i ask
    for. Mostly Hardware broke not down and the Driversupport is excellent.
    After buying a new Audiointerface by Motu i realize with what bad avid
    product i was working all time, cause all Troubles were gone.
    So i
    don’t know if they make this crap with the stuff that costs 10000 of
    $…. They say they are a pro audio brandmark… when this is Pro… i
    don’t know. I don’t know if the Complaints by the Users are in
    connection with the Wallstreet bizz… but it should be like this… And
    by the way: read the AVID Forums and what they have to tell about the
    mbox…. after this experience i can not recommend to buy avid to
    everybody. DON’T DO IT. When this is the reason for the NASDAQ Failure i
    can hardly understand this very good… you can not “play” with the
    Users. All i want is to make Music and not to deal with such
    problems…. And finaly i have to say: It was like for others not a
    surprise to read this articel, it complete a picture avid set in my
    mind. It is sad when people will loose jobs and i’m the last one i want
    this. But i think the Problems are housemade. Otherwise i would write
    real nice stuff about this company and that it must survive…… this
    is what avid teach me: don’t buy avid products !

  • LA Recorer

    Hahaha!! Reaper! Hahaha! Yeah.. Clearly you’ve never made a real record if you think Reaper is better than Pro Tools. SMH…

    • Richard Michael

      LA=Large Asshole

    • Obsljhkr

      Used Reaper once and I was like GTFOOH. Crap app.

  • Rodfire

    Pro tools is not the only professional choice get over yourselves, “the daw doesn’t make the producer” the new generation understand this & many of them are making a living of there music using cheaper alternatives, that’s why they aren’t fooled by the “industry standard” marketing strategy that avid has been using for years while making it’s costumers pay extortionate prizes to upgrade. If you love your daw good for you, but at the end of the day the music is what matters not what it was made in.

  • Freddie

    This is what happens when music flirts with the corporate world. It’s rarely good for anyone in the long run but it sure profits some people in the short and mid term……shame it’s not the users.

    The cycle is:

    1) Good company with great product grows rapidly and needs good management to navigate the dangers of rapid growth and cashflow

    2) Corporate Management team appointed with nice stock options in place to reward anticipated growth.

    3) Management team create growth via an IPO, whipping all employees to near death in the process.

    4) Management team cash in options and run leaving demoralised and beaten employees to face the brutal corporate world, all the time being told “more growth, we must have more growth” by the shareholders

    5) While the company flounders with the words ‘Rape me’ writ large across its forehead , shareholders appoint new corporate management team on an even more absurd remuneration system (often guaranteed bonuses with no links to profitability).

    6) Abstract accounting methods used to mask the true problems of the company. Employees let go. Divisions sold off and the company generally mothballed while the carpet baggers still receive their absurd salaries and remuneration.

    7) Company barred from corporate environment whereupon one of three things happen:

    i) Company goes bust

    ii) Company returns to being a small to medium concern having learned a lesson of ‘don’t play with the big boys’

    iii) Company sells the crown jewels (brand and IP) to another company

    I had a lot of time for Avid back in the early non linear editing days. I had a lot of time for Digidesign back in the early HD recording days. Avid and Digi could have made a good team (and undoubtedly did for a while) but corporate greed knows no bounds when it comes to money. Shareholders demand more and more while their support and patience for the company grows weaker and weaker. Combine all of this with a high degree of arrogance from within and the writing is on the wall. IMO the arrogance of Avid was never more evident than with AAX, a new format foisted on users (and developers) for little reason besides “we’re superior and the users will just have to suck it up” An attitude that made Apple look almost altruistic.

  • pgorges

    As a former “acquiree” and manager in Avid I think this is a good thing for the customers. It puts more pressure on Avid to sell to a company that will keep Pro Tools available (I’m not discussing why it would have to be, I think it’s pretty obvious, albeit not for technical or competitive reasons) and stop ramming it into the ground like Avid’s “management teams” have done for the past 5 years. I left Digidesign in 2008 when the bleeding of talent and outrageous display of incompetence and self-serving among the executive staff in Avid became too obvious to ignore, and it’s gotten worse and worse by the day.
    But even if Pro Tools gets saved, the sad fact remains that a company I saw thriving, proud and brimming of super-talented, amazing people in 2006 (when they bought my company) has been almost destroyed and is unsavable by Avid, no matter what any member of the current “management team” might get written into their delusional PR scripts.

  • Gbsr

    Studio One > all.

    • apoclypse

      I think that Presonus could be a nice replacement for protools in the future if they get better hardware out there and start to focus more on the pro side of the market. Studio One even at version 2.6 is phenomenal. It’s missing features bu the developers seem willing and able to add the necessary features and are taking their time to make sure its right.

      I could see Studio One possibly getting there in the future as Studio One’s main focus is audio recording.

    • Richard Michael

      Studio One is shaping up very nicely….

  • Peter Kirns Ghost

    Ah internet commentary’s with no clue. There is NOTHING wrong with Protools. The problem is AVID and its management. They have systematically run the various companies that make became AVID into the ground over years of awful management and decision making. Protools IS STILL the most used DAW in ANY PROFESSIONAL arena. I am not talking rapper making beats bruv in his bedroom in Atlanta or Jurgen trance dorks. But LARGE format recording , classical , film , rock AND pop is still Protools for better or worse those are simply the facts. I have been recording as an engineer professionally in the UK and abroad since the late 80’s and I have NEVER seen a DAW other than Protools in use in a studio that’s not a private facility. ANY work for hire studio that actually does REAL work uses PT. I have been using it since it began YEARS before any other DAW even got audio , PT had plugins and automation and amazing editing tools. Sure the world has changed and the way people make music has changed but at the high end creating all the various shite people buy and watch its PT. Always has been. AVID NEEDS TO DIE. It needs to wake up to the realities of the current market place and rationalise the PT and Media composer product lines. They need to address its pricing structures and cripple ware aspects of cheaper versions of PT. There is still need for HDX in many arenas like Post and large scale recording but it is to expensive to really make any in roads to the high end ‘prosumer’ and music making markets. There are many reasonable options and rightly or wrongly a lot of people buy on price and percieved value. PT WILL live on. I love PT , cannot abide AVID. AVID is the problem not the application. AVID is being run by a bunch of self serving venture capitalists NOT by people with a vested interest in the pro audio industry. This is why it is so broken. Ah capitalism.

    • Interrupting ReplyBot 2012.1

      I use PT 11 and Logic 10, but you sound like a real frigging snob. Just because you can’t make a decent recording on any other 24-bit/32 bit DAW, don’t knock those who got out of Pro tools because of their lack of real midi functionality.

      You remind me of overpaid Wall Street workers who want to pay 3200 bucks for a studio downtown NYC, and drive all the artists out. Yeah, go pay that much. It doesn’t mean you’ll sleep any better at night. And using Pro Tools, because all the rich guys do it, doesn’t mean you’ll make better recordings.

    • Peter Kirns Ghostg

      O cont-rare , I can make a more than decent recording on any other DAW. Thank you for your concern though. The difference is I choose not to.

      Thanks for playing.

    • http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/ Russ Hughes

      It’s “Pro Tools”

    • Peter Kirns Ghost

      It’s a self appointed “Pro Tools Expert”

    • Greg Lőrincz

      Using upper case doesn’t really help your argument.

    • OO

      Sporadic UPPER case is a way to visually EMPHASIZE a point. Like when you SAY something that you WANT to EMPHasize.

      If the rant was ALL CAPS, then I’d agree with … YOU.

    • Richard Michael


  • Oliver Lucas

    They should have come up with an affordable, non crippled native version a couple of years ago and could have taken the market by storm! At that time EVERYONE wanted to have what the big studios use.

    Today the whole “industry standard” blah di blah is just ridiculous when you watch that those “pros” can now finally offline bounce, delay compensate and use clip gain like all the others have done for a decade or so….

    With the new Mac Pro and ultra fast PCs, who wants an (incompatible) DSP card for thousands of dollars? There’s just no need for that anymore and if there is, just slave a second or third system…

    Wrong and greedy management decisions have brought AVID to it’s knees.
    Still, I really wish PT all the best because I like PT a lot as it is today and hope it will survive on a larger scale than just in the Hollywood niche.

  • Pro Tools Rools

    I like cats.

  • Michael

    I’ve gone from ProTools 7 to 8 to Live to Reaper chasing the ultimate workflow… the computer itself is what I have decided the problem to be. So I just purchased a second MPC 2500 for music creation. I run that through the ZED 14 with a bit of outboard gear and a few pedals then capture a stereo track on a digital recorder. That track only then goes to the computer (in Reaper) and gets mastered with Ozone 5 then off to Bandcamp. I’m close to eliminating that last step and just mastering in the iPad. So it will be hardware and an iPad then on to the listener. All with excellent sound quality. I’m glad the gatekeepers are gone. I like the engineering side but musicians just don’t need them anymore. Put in the 10,000 hours and do it yourself on inexpensive but awesome equipment you understand. The world needs more great music. The production and distribution of that music no longer requires the likes of Avid or the other big names. They are just tools in the bag if you like them and can afford them and want to put up with their shenanigans. The pros don’t even need all this stuff, it becomes commitment bias after spending all that cash on gear and software. We are all spoiled. Plenty of folks are creating awesome content with minimal equipment at low cost. I hope that trend continues. That turned into a rambling rant…

    • Obsrvst

      It did. But you are correct in that music production has changed from even 10 years ago.

      But music QUALITY suffers. Things will sound excellent regardless of what you use these days, engineering is starting to dilute itself amidst this fact but “excellent sound quality” does not make a great piece of musical work.

      And in my view, there still great music from before to be discovered, so hold your horses on ‘the world needs more great music’. Not if its all junk.

  • heinrichz

    Protools is mainly for musical conservatives and luddites and it only stayed around that long because it had the home advantage of being a quasi industry standard for the US market. I was a long time pro tools power user myself and thought that they missed the boat to be suitable for new electronic music styles already back in the nineties.

    • Oo

      Much like MOTU DP.

  • djsmps

    Reaper is the new way.

    • oO

      Reaper sucks.

    • djsmps

      You’ve never tried it then.

  • Eric B.

    I know a guy who works for Avid in sales;

    in the whole ramp-up to the Grammys (a time when Avid was trying to showcase PT for obvious reasons) they were discussing potential prospects for celeb musician endorsements. This salesguy said “Hey, what about Nile Rodgers! The timing couldn’t be better on that one.”

    The suits’ collective reply: “…who?”

    • Oo

      Are you serious?!

    • Eric B.

      100%. And the anecdote above is verbatim to the best of my recollection.

    • Nile Rodgers eats shit

      Nile Rodgers is an overrated sack of shit. Lame production, no creativity, just a propped up piece of shit nigger that needs to get shot in a drive-by.

  • Protools Paul

    Protools Paul

  • Protools Paul

    Digidesign Control24 Ethernet to Midi Avid have removed my new thread RE: Digidesign Control24 Ethernet to Midi Mod Apple Logic X Pro

    Digidesign Control24 Mod | Flickr – Photo Sharing!

    Say goodbye to hardware controllers

    Experience the best way to take control of any MIDI-capable software

  • james dw

    Having used several major DAWs, I find no evidence of PT’s superiority. It is the industry standard for post production, but not for music anymore. Cubase, Nuendo, Live, Logic, Sonar, all have comparable feature sets and each have their specific strengths and weaknesses. But since they all copy each other, the advantages don’t last long. I wouldn’t mind at all if a few of them combined to reduce the number of options while increasing their resources. This would result in fewer, better products. I didn’t even mention DP, Reaper, FL, etc…

  • Ptel

    I had a feeling years ago that this would happen. AVID had been gobbling up companies for years just like EA has in the game industry. A unified brand can only go so far when a company is more concerned with brand management than their end product.

  • MarytM

    Things look a lot worse than they really are. Avid has $50 million in cash and a commitment from banks for another $60 million should they need it. It’s only the fact that it’s public and must abide by stringent reporting standards that this mess exists.

  • Ty Ford

    obsolete? I make my living with PT everyday. My only guess here is that you’re from one of the lesser competitors and are trying to spin the story to your profit. Shame on you! Go to the corner for a time out!

    • Richard Michael

      you are a fool…. keep spewing the low iq bullshit.

    • Ty Ford

      Perfect! Thanks so much for playing! :)

  • Done

    Well they shot themselves in the foot after buying Sibelius and then scrapping further development. When you tell your customers that you pretty much don’t care about the product you’re producing, don’t expect them to sit around and take it. There are a lot of consumers jumping ship.

  • WilliamK

    Well, asking $ 600 USD annually for small devs just to VALIDATE plugins is insane… :-( No NFR copies, no going easy on small devs… that should teach other companies I guess… too bad Steinberg and Ableton does the same thing. :-

  • Music4me

    Avid, has been way behind the times regarding Pro tools. It took them this long to come out with a 64bit DAW? I’ve been using 64bit DAWs for almost 10 years now. And this AAX plug-in format is a joke. Why you exclude people who use different formats of plug-ins? That’s where they made the mistake, I have a ton of excellent VST plug-ins, and I’m not about to give them up, just because they wanna have their own exclusive format!

  • Curtis

    As a post audio professional, there is only pro tools, nothing stands close to it. And as far as avid is concerned at least in my market, 80% of the editors use avid if not more. Most final cut editors are slowly drifting back to avid.

    • Richard Michael


  • D Day

    The problem is most of the less expensive DAW’s have become so advanced. They are pretty much capable of doing the same things as PT with just as many plugins for ait fraction of the price. It’s just a matter of learning the full functionality of the one that you are working with. This was bound to happen.

  • http://wheatwilliams.com Wheat Williams

    And there’s no love for Sibelius. Practically nobody here seems interested in even bringing it up.

  • Michael Ryan

    Guys, it’s not Pro Tools losing piles of cash for Avid, it’s Avid’s gross mismanagement of their entire product line. Would anyone here be sad if Pro Tools was owned by a private company that employed US programmers? I didn’t think so.

  • Daniel

    I don’t use Pro Tools very often, so does that mean it’s gonna be discontinued?

  • Christabel Smith

    After being in relationship with him for nine years,he broke up with me, I
    did everything possible to bring him back but all was in vain, I wanted him
    back so much because of the love I have for him, I begged him with
    everything, I made promises but he refused. I explained my problem to
    someone online and she suggested that I should rather contact a spell
    caster that could help me cast a spell to bring him back but I am the type
    that never believed in spell, I had no choice than to try it, I mailed the
    spell caster, and he told me there was no problem that everything will be
    okay before four days, that my ex will return to me before four days, he
    cast the spell and surprisingly in the second day, it was around 4pm. My ex
    called me, I was so surprised, I answered the call and all he said was that
    he was so sorry for everything that happened, that he wanted me to return
    to him, that he loves me so much. I was so happy and went to him, that was
    how we started living together happily again. Since then, I have made
    promise that anybody I know that have a relationship problem, I would be of
    help to such person by referring him or her to the only real and powerful
    spell caster, DR OJEFOR who helped me with my own problem and who is
    different from
    all the fake ones out there. Anybody could need the help of the spell
    caster, his email is (drojeforspellcaster@gmail.com }
    you can email him if you need his assistance in your relationship or
    anything he cast spells for different
    purposes like
    (1) If you want your ex back.
    (2) if you always have bad dreams.
    (3) You want to be promoted in your office.
    (4) You want women/men to run after you.
    (5) If you want a child.
    (6) You want to be rich.
    (7) You want to tie your husband/wife to be
    yours forever.
    (8) If you need financial assistance.
    (9) Herbal care
    (10) If you can be able to satisfy your wife
    sex desire due
    to low erraction.
    (11) if your menstruation refuse to come
    out the day it
    suppose or over flows.
    (12) if your work refuse to pay your, people
    owing you?.
    (13) solve a land issue and get it back.
    (14) Did your family Denny you of your
    (15) Let people obey my words and do my
    (16) Do you have a low sperm count?
    (17) bad lucks
    (18) people are jealous of you

  • Enough.

    I think all you music gear geeks need to calm down and move away from the mouse and menu’s and focus on just making great songs and innovating, soul touching stuff instead of all the beats thug driven artsy hokey pockery you emmeffers are feeding the masses.

    Go… practice your instruments.

  • Emily powell

    Am Emily Powell from Canada I never believed in spell casters until my life fell apart when my lover of 4 years decided to call it quit. I was so devastated that i had an accident that left me bedridden. After 7 months of emotional pain and languish, a friend of mine introduced me to a certain spell caster, this was after I have been scammed by various fake spell caster. I was introduced to DR ONIHA ( A Spell Caster). In less than 12 hrs i saw wonders, my Lover came back to me and my life got back just like a completed puzzle… am so happy.. Dr ONIHA have all kinds of spells from pregnancy to love,from employment to visa lottery winning. He has spell to stop divorce,spell to make someone look attractive and others. here’s his contact for serious minded people only, it might be of help….onihaspiritualtemple@yahoo.com. wow Dr.ONIHA…thanks am so grateful as you saved my life.

  • PT is a joke

    ProTools sucks big fat fully erect feces covered cocks.